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Thread: Test of Faith

  1. #121
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Again, I'm happy for your above statement to stand by itself and for others to judge its credibility.
    Its not mine - its the English Dictionaries. Complain to them

    And interesting that you felt it necessary to replace Flew's use of the word "God" with your preferred "some alien".
    Interesting in what way ? Why do you think I prefer it ? His quote was:

    "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian ... It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."
    His suggestion of "person" seemed to merit "alien" far more easily than "god" as he only seemed to be using "god" in the first place for the sake of comparison. Can i change it to "some person" instead then ?

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Well that's an answer Steve. I'd agree that the whole concept of Atheism fundamentally rests on the relyability of your statement here. I'll let others make their own minds up if your answer is convincing.

    Interestingly, the original author of the philosophical work "The Presumption of Atheism" , Anthony Flew, back in 1984, says he has now changed his mind and is now a deist - based on scientific evidence.

    Atheist Philosopher, 81, Now Believes in God | LiveScience
    Oh, no. Don't get me started on what the bloody woo-woos did the poor bloke as his mental faculty was fading...

    In the end, the answer is - who cares what Flew believes or doesn't believe? It's an (apparent) argument to authority, which gets nowhere.

    Not quite sure what the word 'original' is supposed to contribute to your paragraph..?

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    So you calling Barry silly then ?
    I am silly. No two ways about it.

    I'm also incisive.

    sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold - what can I tell you...?

    Clearly, the study of science doesn't make anyone an atheist.

    This evening, I'm going to look into the question of atheism amongst scientists. There are references in The God delusion but I don't have it with me.

  4. #124
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    {snip whole post}
    Stewart, your quote of my statement that "I'm not wrong" at the bottom of the above post was grossly unfair and misleading.

    That statement was made in respect of whoosis' post about the use of the phrase 'genes for...' and NOT in respect of atheism amongst scientists. Shame on you!

    {presses Return key muttering about the quality of debate...}
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 3rd-January-2008 at 06:13 PM.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Its not mine - its the English Dictionaries. Complain to them
    AskOxford: atheism - no complaints from me.

    Interesting in what way ? Why do you think I prefer it ?

    His suggestion of "person" seemed to merit "alien" far more easily than "god" as he only seemed to be using "god" in the first place for the sake of comparison. Can i change it to "some person" instead then ?
    Feel free to change his words as much as you like. Again, individuals can decide on the why's and wherefores....

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    {snip whole post}
    You too, DJ, are guilty of misrepresenting me.

    I did not make any claims about being right or wrong except in respect of the use of the phrase 'gene for...'

    Your juxtaposition in the above post was misleading and unfair.
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 3rd-January-2008 at 06:14 PM.

  7. #127
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Your juxtaposition in the above post was misleading and unfair.
    Ah, but you've got me confused with someone who, well, cares about the topic rather than about making cheap shots.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    If you like, read another version of what happened to Anthony Flew.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Stewart, your quote of my statement that "I'm not wrong" at the bottom of the above post was grossly unfair and misleading.

    That statement was made in respect of whoosis' post about the use of the phrase 'genes for...' and NOT in respect of atheism amongst scientists. Shame on you!

    {presses Return key muttering about the quality of debate...}
    To be fair to Steve, I think he has a fair point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Clearly, the study of science doesn't make anyone an atheist.
    I'm also very happy to read this from you Steve. This wasn't what I understood your position to be from previous postings you have made, but I'll put that down to my sloppy reading.



    Will

    P.S. If my reading is bad its because you ruined my eyes with those "GODLESS" bemuda shorts that you turned up to the Jive Bar in for years on end!!!

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    Re: Test of Faith

    [QUOTE=Will;440531]To be fair to Steve, I think he has a fair point here.
    Really? That he can take my response to a different post and a different poster and attach it to his reply to to my reply to his post? That's 'fair'?
    i'm also very happy to read this from you Steve. This wasn't what I understood your position to be from previous postings you have made, but I'll put that down to my sloppy reading.
    No, I generally take the position that most scientists are agnostic or atheist. But following a career in science doesn't MAKE you an atheist...
    P.S. If my reading is bad its because you ruined my eyes with those "GODLESS" bemuda shorts that you turned up to the Jive Bar in for years on end!!!
    Oh dear! Your memory's going too! (or your spelling) I used to wear the offensive SHIRTS. (I gave up wearing shorts to dance in when I saw a picture of myself busking in Cambridge. It was definitely an EEK! moment.)

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You too, DJ, are guilty of misrepresenting me.

    I did not make any claims about being right or wrong except in respect of the use of the phrase 'gene for...'

    Your juxtaposition in the above post was misleading and unfair.
    Can you just clarify your wrong about nearly all scientists being non believers

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Really? That he can take my response to a different post and a different poster and attach it to his reply to to my reply to his post? That's 'fair'?
    Another misunderstanding I fear, for I was agreeing with you Steve. I don't think it's fair, I meant that I wanted to be fair to you!
    (I can see I'm only making this worse)


    Oh dear! Your memory's going too! (or your spelling) I used to wear the offensive SHIRTS. (I gave up wearing shorts to dance in when I saw a picture of myself busking in Cambridge. It was definitely an EEK! moment.)
    I stand corrected, you're quite right, it was the Hawain shirts wasn't it. (Though you did get your legs out at the Jive Bar also on occasion - it's all documented in my psychiatrists old notes).

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    No, I generally take the position that most scientists are agnostic or atheist.
    Why?

    It doesn't match my experience or even the mix of people posting on the Forum.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    AskOxford: atheism - no complaints from me.
    Ah very selective of you using the concise oxford dictionary. Still, some dictionaries do leave out the "lack of belief" part, but not many I've seen. see here for some background. The only dictionary I have in the house, a Collins, has Atheism as "rejection of belief in god or gods" which sounds like disbelief rather than denial to me. It also sounds weird, but thats English for you - changeable.

    Not that any of this matters - most atheists will use "lack of belief OR denial" as the definition - and really, they should know I mean, would you ask satanist to define Christianity ? Using another definition because you don't like the word is not big or clever.


    Feel free to change his words as much as you like. Again, individuals can decide on the why's and wherefores....
    I don't want to change his words at all, so I'll stick with "some person".

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    It doesn't match my experience
    Based on my experience Sweden doesn't exist as I've never been there. Is that proof enough that Abba are from somewhere else ?

    or even the mix of people posting on the Forum.
    Yes it does - a majority of forumites have no god belief

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Another misunderstanding I fear, for I was agreeing with you Steve. I don't think it's fair, I meant that I wanted to be fair to you!
    (I can see I'm only making this worse)
    Yah. You fooled me by using - ahem - a name by which I am not known here!!

    I stand corrected, you're quite right, it was the Hawain shirts wasn't it. (Though you did get your legs out at the Jive Bar also on occasion - it's all documented in my psychiatrists old notes).
    I'm pretty sure nobody saw my legs at the Jive Bar...as I said, someone photographed me dancing in shorts and I got the shock of my life. "Who's that dork? - Omigod, it's me. EEK.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Can you just clarify your wrong about nearly all scientists being non believers
    No.mmmmmmm

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, I haven't seen your answer to the question I posed. But please, don't feel the need to get involved. I'll put you in the 'no-shows'.
    I look forward to seeing my name in the minutes' apologies.

    My answer to the question isn't on this thread, but we have sparred over similar ground before. Or, putting it another way, the answers from other Christians on this thread are sufficiently in line with my own that I don't feel the need to re-iterate.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Thanks to Barry for posting the link to Dawkins "Memetics". I had wondered where the name came from. However sceptical anyone may be none of the ideas I have read about memetics were new to me, only the name.

    I already believed in "The Blind Watchmaker", although, once again, the name was new to me. I also believed that the "Blind Watchmaker" will develop, or already has developed "sight"and purpose.

    Intelligent beings will spread themselves amongst the stars. They will want to find worldsto inhbit. They will plan to have them terraformed ready for their eventual arrival. The way to do that is to propogate selected genetic material throughout the universe in robotic space vehicles which can search for suitable planets. Genetic egineering and super-computr modelling will ensure that evolution is no longer pure chance, but directed to a goal. In other words, intelligent design. Anywhere that intelligent life eventually evolves will transmit the news via radio waves and nuclear blasts. In effect the Incas and the Aztects will send a "come and get us" message to the Spaniards.

    We could be the work of a blind watchmaker, or just sitting ducks, quacking loudly. Perhaps we are just here to build dancehalls for the real dances, when they choose to come.

    (Can I sue some libraries for stocking too much science fiction?)

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Thanks to Barry for posting the link to Dawkins "Memetics". I had wondered where the name came from. However sceptical anyone may be none of the ideas I have read about memetics were new to me, only the name.

    I already believed in "The Blind Watchmaker", although, once again, the name was new to me. I also believed that the "Blind Watchmaker" will develop, or already has developed "sight"and purpose.

    Intelligent beings will spread themselves amongst the stars. They will want to find worldsto inhbit. They will plan to have them terraformed ready for their eventual arrival. The way to do that is to propogate selected genetic material throughout the universe in robotic space vehicles which can search for suitable planets. Genetic egineering and super-computr modelling will ensure that evolution is no longer pure chance, but directed to a goal. In other words, intelligent design. Anywhere that intelligent life eventually evolves will transmit the news via radio waves and nuclear blasts. In effect the Incas and the Aztects will send a "come and get us" message to the Spaniards.

    We could be the work of a blind watchmaker, or just sitting ducks, quacking loudly. Perhaps we are just here to build dancehalls for the real dances, when they choose to come.

    (Can I sue some libraries for stocking too much science fiction?)
    It isn't the libraries you need to sue but your drug dealer.

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