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Thread: Test of Faith

  1. #41
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods
    Atheism isn't the lack of belief in gods. I have plenty of lack of belief in gods - I am awash with it - I have lack of belief to spare for everyone... but I am not an atheist. Atheism is the belief in the lack of gods. Important distinction

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    BZZZZZTTTTTT!!

    Oops. Wrong answer. Read it again more carefully. The Bible quite clearly says that it's OK to kill if god tells you to.
    The Bible has to be read in order.

    Eg divorce was acceptable in the Old Testament but not in the New. God commands Abraham to kill Issac in Genesis (though this is a test). In Exodus which follows the 10 Commandments are given. Where after this point does God specifically tell someone to kill someone else? (though I agree the kill / murder distinction is an important one. My immune system is killing countless organisms right now)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    What do you say to someone who kills and explains to you that god told him to kill? You can't say it's impossible, and if you believe in personal revelation you can't criticise him. The best you can say is 'I don't believe in a god who would tell you to do that' and his reply is "I don't give a stuff what god you believe in, I believe in the god of the bible - old and new testaments - and he told me to kill."
    In this context the question is
    "Are they right or just schizophrenic?" - I'm not sure there's much you can say to either though.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    "Evolution" is just one of many that had a hard time attracting believers, and still has not attained 100% acceptance.
    The only people who don't accept "Evolution" as fact, are those who would have to compromise their faith to believe in it...and who can blame them.

    If you'd spent your whole life believing in Adam & Eve, etc & then realised that evolution is a million more times plausible, that could be a bit of a downer.

    Take Jonathan Edwards, for example. He gave up his job on Songs of Praise because he woke up to the reality that it's all Jackanory and complete nonsense, not to mention made him look like a fruitcake. I've seen him being interviewed when he still had faith and he comes across as a nutter, preaching like one of those American Evangelist types. He probably saw the footage and realised everyone was laughing at him.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Atheism isn't the lack of belief in gods. I have plenty of lack of belief in gods - I am awash with it - I have lack of belief to spare for everyone... but I am not an atheist.
    To be more specific then - Atheism is lack of belief in ANY gods.


    Atheism is the belief in the lack of gods. Important distinction
    Atheism is generally defined as "lack of belief OR denial" so your definition here, while true, is a stronger position to take as its is a denial of the gods in question. This is usually called Strong Atheism. Weak Atheism is the first definition, the "lack of belief" and does not involve any beliefs at all.

    Weak Atheism is far, far more common . The default position for something you know nothing, or not enough, about, pretty much has to be a "lack of belief" in it, rather than a positive "belief that it does not exist" which is of course "denial" and a logical position to take which suggests at least "some" thought

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Weak Atheism is far, far more common . The default position for something you know nothing, or not enough, about, pretty much has to be a "lack of belief" in it, rather than a positive "belief that it does not exist" which is of course "denial" and a logical position to take which suggests at least "some" thought
    Agree. Most atheists are atheist because of personal convenience. They don't want to have to think that there might be some higher authority because that then means they have to consider their own behaviour and actions in light of that. So they just don't think about it.

    Atheists who have thought it through and worked out where to draw their morality, sense of right etc from - and looking at how evil man can be it must be a challenge to draw these things from humanity with no belief in God - have thought about it and decided on their position. They are able to have rational and reasoned discussions with theists of any tradition.

    Dogmatic atheists 'I'm right and you are all wrong' are effectively setting themselves up as their own god - but they don't seem to be aware of that.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.
    Not really, it means live a life of integrity and live like GOD

    or live a life without integrity and live like a DOG

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Not really, it means live a life of integrity and live like GOD

    or live a life without integrity and live like a DOG
    My dog lives a pretty good life, with food, play and a nice comfy bed to sleep on. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    Seriously, what a word spells backwards is pretty irrelevant to anything, isn't it? Plus it only works in English.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post

    Seriously, what a word spells backwards is pretty irrelevant to anything, isn't it? Plus it only works in English.
    When in Rome.......



    (do as the Romans)

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Not really, it means live a life of integrity and live like GOD

    or live a life without integrity and live like a DOG
    What's integrity got to do with the spelling of god?

    You might as well say...

    "live a life of stupidity and live like GOD; live a life without stupidity and live like a DOG."

    Woof!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Why does everyone have such an incredibly simple and naive view of genetics? I might be wrong but I thought I saw someone write about "a gene for X, and a gene for Y", which is very nearly absolute rubbish.

    Also, sociopathy is not remarkable in the slightest in light of evolution. Species are not automatically successful because of their ability to co operate (look at some bacteria or flies, way more successful than humans). If people would actually carefully read the books they hear about then they might know what they're talking about. Rant over, sorry.

    Dan

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    Re: Test of Faith

    This thread reminded me of a brilliant scene in 'Malcolm In The Middle'. The family pretend to be religious and join a Church to get free Childcare. One of the children keeps asking questions about why God would do this or that and gets fobbed off that he can't possibly understand God's motives. His final response is as follows:-

    Dewey: Like Pastor Roy said, how God is so much bigger and wiser than us, and trying to see what He's thinking would be like an ant trying to see what I'm thinking.

    Teacher: Yes, exactly. But we can trust in His wisdom, and have faith that He is watching over us.

    Dewey: Like me with the anthill in my backyard. I spent days watching the ants, trying to figure out which ones were good, and which ones were bad, but they all just looked like ants, so I started smiting all of them.

    Teacher: Well that's not --

    Dewey: I was smiting them with the garden hose, and with lighter fluid, and with the lawnmower, and to be perfectly honest, I think I went a little crazy with the shovel. Those ants could have been praying to me all day, I wouldn't have heard them.

    ponders

    There was nothing they could do about it.

    Teacher: But, I don't think --

    Dewey: Really, it's the same with us. There's nothing we can do about anything either, so why worry about it? Hey, this is making me feel better.

    Teacher: Well, that's good, but --

    Dewey: I guess all we can do is live our lives with as much kindness and decency as possible, and try not to dwell on God standing over us with a giant shovel. Bye!

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I had worked that stuff out for myself long before Dawkins put pen to paper. For most real world situations the theory of games comes up with the best strategy as being a mixture of cooperation and competition, and often the nature of the competition is sociopathic.
    Well, clearly you should have published when you worked it out for yourself because otherwise I (and others) are going to say 'cobblers', no you didn't.

    And I say again, read it, and if you've read it before read it again and this time pay attention. Understand the concept of the ESS and you'll see why evolution cannot be expected to lead in the direction of sociopathy.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    A fair point. However, there are atheists who are every bit as evangelistic and obnoxious about their (lack of) beliefs as some Christians I could mention are about their beliefs. Richard Dawkins comes to mind.
    I'd be grateful if you'd illustrate Richard Dawkins' obnoxiousness.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The Bible has to be read in order.

    Eg divorce was acceptable in the Old Testament but not in the New. God commands Abraham to kill Issac in Genesis (though this is a test). In Exodus which follows the 10 Commandments are given. Where after this point does God specifically tell someone to kill someone else?
    It's your bible, read it. There are several incidents where god tells israelites that they can murder, rape and pillage.

    In this context the question is
    "Are they right or just schizophrenic?" - I'm not sure there's much you can say to either though.
    I can say lots to this individual. 'You are mistaking and have mistaken brain malfunction for divine instructions. Come with me. You must go to prison but after that we will give you medicine which will mean your brain will not malfunction any more and at least you won't believe some deity is ordering you to kill.'

    YOU can't say any such thing, since you can't be sure he isn't telling the truth and correct.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.
    ... and dog is man's best friend

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Agree. Most atheists are atheist because of personal convenience. They don't want to have to think that there might be some higher authority because that then means they have to consider their own behaviour and actions in light of that. So they just don't think about it.
    Most believers are believers because of personal convenience. They don't want to have to think about what they should and shouldn't do so they invent some higher authority because that then means they don't have to consider their own behaviour and actions except in light of that. So they just don't think about it.
    Atheists who have thought it through and worked out where to draw their morality, sense of right etc from - and looking at how evil man can be it must be a challenge to draw these things from humanity with no belief in God - have thought about it and decided on their position. They are able to have rational and reasoned discussions with theists of any tradition.
    Atheists who have considered it for a few moments realise where their morality, sense of right etc flows from - and knowing there is no such thing as evil it becomes more simple to understand how nature drives human action. However they are totally unable to have rational and reasoned discussions with theists of any tradition because theists believe in utter mumbo-jumbo and not rationality and reason.
    Dogmatic atheists 'I'm right and you are all wrong' are effectively setting themselves up as their own god - but they don't seem to be aware of that.
    This dogmatic atheist says that he doesn't expect anyone to follow him let alone worship him, and that he is all too painfully aware of his own imperfections and limitations. But needing the crutch of wish fulfilment oo-aah stories isn't one of them.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    Why does everyone have such an incredibly simple and naive view of genetics? I might be wrong but I thought I saw someone write about "a gene for X, and a gene for Y", which is very nearly absolute rubbish.

    Also, sociopathy is not remarkable in the slightest in light of evolution. Species are not automatically successful because of their ability to co operate (look at some bacteria or flies, way more successful than humans). If people would actually carefully read the books they hear about then they might know what they're talking about. Rant over, sorry.

    Dan
    Erm...it seems to me that you aren't reading the posts carefully.

    On the other matter - geneticists and evolutionary biologists talk about a gene 'for' X and Y all the time. It's a standard shorthand. It is well known that most genes have a multiple effect, that some genes have no effect other than to turn other genes on or off, and so forth. But it's just too long-winded to go all around the houses using the grammatically and scientifically unimpeachable version of the phrase 'a gene for X...' every time you need to say it.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'd be grateful if you'd illustrate Richard Dawkins' obnoxiousness.
    I'm pretty sure it's already been done on another thread by someone else.

    Criticism of Dawkins doesn't just come from religious believers like me. A friend of mine who is an atheist, highly knowledgeable in philosophy and intelligent enough to hold his own with anyone on an intellectual level, refers to Dawkins as a "fundamentalist" and says flat out that he doesn't like his way of putting things. He said I'd be much better off reading Hume or Flew if I want a fairer picture of atheism. Which I'm quite happy to do, by the way.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Agree. Most atheists are atheist because of personal convenience. They don't want to have to think that there might be some higher authority because that then means they have to consider their own behaviour and actions in light of that. So they just don't think about it.
    Just because there is a higher authority, doesn't mean you need to have any interest in it, far less worship it. So you could be an atheist but still believe gods rules/laws/advice are absolute nonsense. Its a real stretch to assume that an atheist, on finding a belief in god, would suddenly think about this the same way as you do

    Atheists who have thought it through and worked out where to draw their morality, sense of right etc from - and looking at how evil man can be it must be a challenge to draw these things from humanity with no belief in God
    All people get their sense of morality from other people and their society, regardless of belief. God may or may not be present in their society, it changes nothing.

    Dogmatic atheists 'I'm right and you are all wrong' are effectively setting themselves up as their own god - but they don't seem to be aware of that.
    Dogmatic atheists are thin on the ground, Dogmatic theists are certainly not. It could be said that all dogmatic theists are setting themselves up as a prophet of god - surely thats against the rules

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    It's your bible, read it.
    I am. However it's a rather large book and I don't intend memorising it. I have however just skimmed the Old Testament when they were wandering around fighting everyone and then did an online search
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    There are several incidents where god tells israelites that they can murder, rape and pillage.
    but I couldn't find any references where God actually tells anyone to go and rape someone else.

    BibleGateway - Quick search: rape

    Zechariah's quote is a prophecy of what's to come rather than something to go and do.


    There is a fair amount of warfare; you'd need an actual scholar, but I doubt the Jews at the time considered killing / pillaging / sacking done as an act of war as murder.

    So where does God say "Go kill / rape this individual"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    YOU can't say any such thing, since you can't be sure he isn't telling the truth and correct.
    Actually I meant more that neither was likely to listen to you whatever you said.

    If it's God's Will then there's no way I can stop them. If I can however then I'd be inclined to go with mental illness.

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