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Thread: Test of Faith

  1. #21
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    Re: Test of Faith

    The sixth commandment should be translated as "thou shalt not commit murder", not "thou shalt not kill". The god of the Old Testament provided instructions on the killing of animals for meat and the killing of humans in war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Makes you really ponder the old question .. "If God controls all why does he let such bad things happen etc. etc." After all these years in the Faith I'm still yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me.
    The answer that makes sense to me is that Christianity is incomplete. By contrast, the "first noble truth" of Buddhism is that suffering (Dukkha) exists. Suffering is thus a fact of life, rather than a test of faith.

  2. #22
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    ... makes you really ponder the old question .. "If God controls all why does he let such bad things happen etc. etc." ...
    Why only look at recent history and wonder at why God lets so many bad things happen?

    In the Garden of Eden, why did he let Satan tempt fallible humans? Why did God allow Satan to exist in the first place?

    Why anyway did He create fallible humans and then put temptation in their way? What did He expect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    After all these years in the Faith I'm still yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me.
    These are the sorts of questions I asked myself as a child. I have never heard a good answer.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  3. #23
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Suffering is thus a fact of life, rather than a test of faith.
    Many Christians believe that as well. One theme of the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible is that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, but God is still there despite that.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Many Christians believe that as well. One theme of the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible is that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, but God is still there despite that.
    I have to disagree. The "problem of suffering" is a test of faith for Christians. We can see this in the book of Job. We can see this in ex-Christians who lost their faith through personal suffering or observing the suffering of others. We can see this in threads like this one. I guess for some Christians it is a test of faith that they pass easily, but it is still a test. If there were no suffering, it would be easier to believe in an all-powerful, all-loving god, and harder to believe in the tenets of Buddhism.

  5. #25
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I have to disagree. The "problem of suffering" is a test of faith for Christians.
    Christianity isn't a "one size fits all" religion. The problem of suffering is certainly a test of faith for some Christians, but just as certainly for others it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    We can see this in the book of Job.
    If the book of Job was all the scripture there was on the subject, I might agree with you. However, Job (and the optimism of the book of Proverbs as well) is balanced by Ecclesiastes, as I mentioned earlier, and the fact that suffering was explicitly a test of faith for Job doesn't mean that it is for everyone.

    Ecclesiastes has a much more bleak, realistic outlook on life: bad things happen to good people, all our efforts are ultimately fruitless and die with us, life is meaningless. The only thing that has meaning is the fact that God is real despite our circumstances, and he will bring justice in the end. The "Ecclesiastes perspective" accepts that we will have to face suffering and injustice in this life, but does not blame God for it. I, and many others besides me, take this view. For us, suffering and injustice are not grounds to doubt God, because they are the common lot of all humans and the inevitable result of us having free will.
    Last edited by Baruch; 29th-December-2007 at 04:57 AM.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    I think that if you believe in evolution that you might expect every member of every species to have sociopathic tendencies.

    The trick is to hide them until their back is turned ...

  7. #27
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As it is, rapidly fanatical evangelists are exclusively religious.
    Yes and no. Fanatically evangelistic atheists are more common than one might think. Some make a case for regarding it as another religion.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think you'll find that's "she"
    She's definately a she IMO.


    I read recently that

    DEVIL is LIVED spelt backwards.

    EVIL is LIVE spelt backwards.

    What do we make of this?

    Does it mean if you don't live your life to the fullest of your talents/capabilities/truth it's sacrilige?

    Will you fall into a longstanding depression? (evil, devil)

  9. #29
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    DEVIL is LIVED spelt backwards.

    EVIL is LIVE spelt backwards.

    What do we make of this?
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.
    I am old enough to remember yob being a backward boy.

  11. #31
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.


    And in just in English? Much as we like to forget it, English is only one of the thousands of languages there are in the world.

    When people were first writing about God and the devil English as the language we have now didn't even exist!

  12. #32
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Does it mean if you don't live your life to the fullest of your talents/capabilities/truth it's sacrilige?

    Will you fall into a longstanding depression? (evil, devil)
    Probably

    Regardless of the word play, this is a good point IMO

    "Sin isn't the breaking of divine commandments, It is the breaking of one's own integrity."

  13. #33
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post

    "Sin isn't the breaking of divine commandments, It is the breaking of one's own integrity."
    But where does our integrity come from?

    I do agree with all the parts about living life to our full potential, always reaching and growing is important.

  14. #34
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    The Bible does not tell people its OK to kill...
    BZZZZZTTTTTT!!

    Oops. Wrong answer. Read it again more carefully. The Bible quite clearly says that it's OK to kill if god tells you to.

    What do you say to someone who kills and explains to you that god told him to kill? You can't say it's impossible, and if you believe in personal revelation you can't criticise him. The best you can say is 'I don't believe in a god who would tell you to do that' and his reply is "I don't give a stuff what god you believe in, I believe in the god of the bible - old and new testaments - and he told me to kill."

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Have you tried that one in court yet?
    Altogether now: BARRY DOESN'T DO CRIMINAL LAW.

    Having said that, it would certainly - in my view, once something of this kind is accepted by the scientific community so that an expert witness could give evidence of it - go to mitigation, but not to guilt or innocence.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I think that if you believe in evolution that you might expect every member of every species to have sociopathic tendencies.

    The trick is to hide them until their back is turned ...
    First of all, one does not believe in evolution. It is as much a fact of life as the sun. You do not have to 'believe' in the sun, it merely is.

    Second, why would evolution (by natural selection) lead to sociopathic tendencies? Read Dawkins on game theory and co-operation in The Blind Watchmaker, amongst others. It is now accepted that is homo sapiens' ability to co-operate that is responsible for the species' phenomenal success. That's why sociopathy is so remarkable.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    GOD is DOG spelt backwards – what are we to make of this???

    That what a word spells backwards is meaningless.


    cobblers is rowlocks spelt backwards. nearly.

  18. #38
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    First of all, one does not believe in evolution. It is as much a fact of life as the sun. You do not have to 'believe' in the sun, it merely is...
    There are many "facts of life" that are not believed. "Evolution" is just one of many that had a hard time attracting believers, and still has not attained 100% acceptance.

    ...It is now accepted that is homo sapiens' ability to co-operate that is responsible for the species' phenomenal success...
    No argument from me.

    ...Second, why would evolution (by natural selection) lead to sociopathic tendencies? ...
    Cooperate to build the communal pot, compete in a sociopathetic manner to get more than your fair share of it. Theft, violence and murder cn all gain advantages, provided you can get away with it, and a lot of humans, and other species, are good at getting away with it.

    ...Read Dawkins on game theory and co-operation in The Blind Watchmaker, amongst others. That's why sociopathy is so remarkable...
    I had worked that stuff out for myself long before Dawkins put pen to paper. For most real world situations the theory of games comes up with the best strategy as being a mixture of cooperation and competition, and often the nature of the competition is sociopathic.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Yes and no. Fanatically evangelistic atheists are more common than one might think. Some make a case for regarding it as another religion.
    no one makes any logical case for calling atheism another religion, as its as sensible as calling an empty, and quite invisible, stable a horse

    does that make sense ? exactly Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods, if people want to get all anti-religion TOO, thats up to them but its got nothing to do with atheism.

  20. #40
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods, if people want to get all anti-religion TOO, thats up to them but its got nothing to do with atheism.
    A fair point. However, there are atheists who are every bit as evangelistic and obnoxious about their (lack of) beliefs as some Christians I could mention are about their beliefs. Richard Dawkins comes to mind.

    Probably the majority of atheists are much more reasonable - in fact I have two friends in particular who are atheists but not at all obnoxious about it, and I've had some interesting discussions with them on the subject of faith and atheism. "Crusading" atheists, on the other hand, just make me switch off and not want to listen.

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