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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Test of Faith

    Funny thing ... Christmas is a time when people 'of christian faith' traditionally feel closer to their God ... but after the last few days I can understand why some can feel further away. Look at today's news: Bhutto assassinated; yet another stabbing death; girl of 7 killed on a quad bike; PC dies on duty ..... makes you really ponder the old question .. "If God controls all why does he let such bad things happen etc. etc." After all these years in the Faith I'm still yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    makes you really ponder the old question .. "If God controls all why does he let such bad things happen etc. etc." After all these years in the Faith I'm still yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me.
    My answer to that is that God does not treat people like puppets to be manipulated and controlled, but rather he allows us all free will, the choice to do what we want.

    And that means some people have the choice to kill and hurt others. But that is down to them and they are responsible for their own actions.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    My answer to that is that God does not treat people like puppets to be manipulated and controlled, but rather he allows us all free will, the choice to do what we want.

    And that means some people have the choice to kill and hurt others. But that is down to them and they are responsible for their own actions.


    Oh, purleese!

    I rejoice in the fact that within a decade this idea of untramelled free will emanating from the brain is going to be trashed by neurophysiological research.

    When we learn what factors (viz. within brain chemistry) lead to the birth of babies with sociopathic tendencies and how to distinguish them from babies that don't have sociopathic tendencies then the myth is going to implode.

    Already we know that homosexuality is not a choice made by persons in full and unconstrained exercise of free will, but rather an option that is more or less forced on someone whose DNA is rather different from heterosexuals.

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    Registered User ~*~Saligal~*~'s Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post


    Oh, purleese!

    I rejoice in the fact that within a decade this idea of untramelled free will emanating from the brain is going to be trashed by neurophysiological research.

    When we learn what factors (viz. within brain chemistry) lead to the birth of babies with sociopathic tendencies and how to distinguish them from babies that don't have sociopathic tendencies then the myth is going to implode.

    Already we know that homosexuality is not a choice made by persons in full and unconstrained exercise of free will, but rather an option that is more or less forced on someone whose DNA is rather different from heterosexuals.
    Although I'm not "for" selective production, I do understand your theory - makes perfect sense.
    Who do you leave these "uncontaminated" babies with to raise? not all sociopathic tendencies are in the make-up of the person, but also come down to the experiences of the child in it's first 2 years of life.

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    Registered User ~*~Saligal~*~'s Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Funny thing ... Christmas is a time when people 'of christian faith' traditionally feel closer to their God ... but after the last few days I can understand why some can feel further away. Look at today's news: Bhutto assassinated; yet another stabbing death; girl of 7 killed on a quad bike; PC dies on duty ..... makes you really ponder the old question .. "If God controls all why does he let such bad things happen etc. etc." After all these years in the Faith I'm still yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me.
    There are some who would say that we are mere mortals and of course we wouldn't understand the logic of such a higher power. (I'm still sitting on the fence on this one - and getting a sore butt)

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post


    Oh, purleese!
    Wayhey, you got in on post three this time! You're getting fast!

    You do know don't you, that no matter how often you say all this stuff it doesn't make it fact - its still just your opinion.

    Just like you not believing in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Just like you not believing in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
    I think you'll find that's "she"

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post

    And that means some people have the choice to kill and hurt others. But that is down to them and they are responsible for their own actions.
    so what about the people that kill in the name of their gods and always have done

    You know the people who have been taught by the various church leaders (especially the christians) that its ok to kill if you do it for god Then stand in church on a sunday read the bible which says thou shalt not kill

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    You do know don't you, that no matter how often you say all this stuff it doesn't make it fact - its still just your opinion.
    But if it IS fact then it's not just an opinion

    Just like you not believing in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
    Any you believing doesn't mean he does either.

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    The Redemption of the Devil.

    To the best of my knowledge this concept is not a part of any religion's theology - but I like it anyway

    As I understand it Kannon is the Bodhisattva of Mercy and Compassion, who has gained enlightenment, but sits at the gates of Heaven and refuses to enter until all sentient beings have gone in first.

    "What do you think? Suppose a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays. Won't he leave the 99 sheep in the hills to look for the one that has strayed?" ~ Matthew 18:12

    Doesn't that include Lucifer?

    The concept seems to be that Lucifer disagreed with God believing his way was superior.

    I assume you believe that good is right - and yet I also assume you do evil. Puzzling isn't it?

    What if we're the proof? Rather than having Lucifer sulk in Hell for eternity, everyone comes down and tries this whole "evil" concept until eventually we reach the point where you look back and go "Ya know, it just doesn't work".

    It gets even more interesting if you apply the multiverse theory and assume that every possible choice is taken and in the end Good still is shown to be the best choice.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Already we know that homosexuality is not a choice made by persons in full and unconstrained exercise of free will, but rather an option that is more or less forced on someone whose DNA is rather different from heterosexuals.
    And I gather they've finally managed to isolate the genes that are responsible for the trait of rabidly fanatical evangelistic scepticism! So someday, gene therapy could become an option for the poor people thus afflicted...

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I rejoice in the fact that within a decade this idea of untramelled free will emanating from the brain is going to be trashed by neurophysiological research.

    When we learn what factors (viz. within brain chemistry) lead to the birth of babies with sociopathic tendencies and how to distinguish them from babies that don't have sociopathic tendencies then the myth is going to implode.

    Already we know that homosexuality is not a choice made by persons in full and unconstrained exercise of free will, but rather an option that is more or less forced on someone whose DNA is rather different from heterosexuals.
    Are you saying that Free Will does not exist? That it's all done to the DNA you get from your parents?

    Once we have established that an unborn embryo has DNA that indicates sociopathic tendencies, what do you think we should do? Eugenics?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Are you saying that Free Will does not exist? That it's all done to the DNA you get from your parents?

    Once we have established that an unborn embryo has DNA that indicates sociopathic tendencies, what do you think we should do? Eugenics?
    No, I'm not saying there is no free will.

    It seems not that DNA determines psycho-social make up, but rather that certain DNA factors produce a susceptibility (rather as they do with other physiological things: there may be - hypothetically - a gene that encodes for a susceptibility to bowel disease; not everyone with the gene gets BD and not everyone without it escapes; but the chances of BD are enormously increased for those with the gene) to sociopathic tendencies. The debatae is going to be a) whether we test for them and b) if we do, how do we attempt to prevent the pathology from developing?

    In other words, even if it is true that nature 'encode' for certain things, it is nurture - or society - that puts the icing on the cake.

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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    And I gather they've finally managed to isolate the genes that are responsible for the trait of rabidly fanatical evangelistic scepticism! So someday, gene therapy could become an option for the poor people thus afflicted...
    Gosh, I hope so! When those genes finally begin to express themselves in the population we will need all the hlep we can get...

    As it is, rapidly fanatical evangelists are exclusively religious.

    As is quite clear from history and current events.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    so what about the people that kill in the name of their gods and always have done

    You know the people who have been taught by the various church leaders (especially the christians) that its ok to kill if you do it for god Then stand in church on a sunday read the bible which says thou shalt not kill
    That is people following men, not God. The Bible does not tell people its OK to kill, so people are following what a man says, not what the Bible says.

    Just because someone is 'religious' does not mean they are following God! People use religion as a way of gaining control over other people, as a way of having power. A lot of the time it has very little to do with God!

    I'm not very fond of religion, but I love God.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    That is people following men, not God. The Bible does not tell people its OK to kill, so people are following what a man says, not what the Bible says.

    Just because someone is 'religious' does not mean they are following God! People use religion as a way of gaining control over other people, as a way of having power. A lot of the time it has very little to do with God!
    you know what lynn i could not agree with you more

    unfortunately the people that teach us about gods etc are the same ones who are after the power that comes with being a teacher in a church

    what we know of gods and the bibles has been translated by men who were working for men of power all of the stories we read are written by men

    sadly it is in mens nature to want power over other men (i am using the word men as in the race not the sex)

    the jesuits said give me a child to the age of 6 and i will give you a convert for life
    If i took a child away from any other source of information and taught it that black was white he/she would believe that to be true till its dying day

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    unfortunately the people that teach us about gods etc are the same ones who are after the power that comes with being a teacher in a church
    Often this is the case, in many religions. But not always. I know some really humble, caring, giving and loving church leaders. Then again the churches I have been involved with the leader hasn't got absolute control, they are actually answerable to the members, so that sort of role wouldn't attract the power hungry type.

    I think of church as a community of people who share the same basic beliefs, not a 'religion' or way of controlling people. I'm aware that the whole concept is open to being used and abused for personal gain though.

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    Registered User Isis's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    the jesuits said give me a child to the age of 6 and i will give you a convert for life
    No, Francis Xavier (a Jesuit) is accredited with the phrase "give me a child until the age of seven and I will show you the man".

    This can be interpreted in several ways.

    This quote was the inspiration behind the television series 'Seven Up', which has followed a group of children from different socio-economic backgrounds every seven years from the age of seven. The general idea seems to be that we are unlikely to escape our class/background etc.

    To me, this quote is about the Jesuit principle of the importance of education rather than indoctrination. I was educated at a Jesuit school and the ethos promoted was that each person should be well educated and should develop their skills/talents as far as possible. In that way we can then use our talents for the benefit of the rest of society. However, you have to pay through the nose for a Jesuit education so I'm not entirely sure how they justify that within the context of Christian principles.
    Last edited by Isis; 28th-December-2007 at 05:00 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    so what about the people that kill in the name of their gods and always have done
    Actually,in modern times, I don't recall many Western christians teaching that ... oh, if you exclude IRA supporting priests, US Christian fundamentalists and 'Right to Lifers'.

    I thin k you will find that its equally common for people to kill in the name of their Country, their turf, their posse, their race, their football team, their alcoholic state of mind etc. Face it, if you kill someone, you can always find a reason for it. The fact that all the major religions (AFAIK) have at the heart of their true teaching some variation of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', then you can argue that it is therefore impossible to kill on the name of your God. (QED?)

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Test of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    It seems not that DNA determines psycho-social make up, but rather that certain DNA factors produce a susceptibility [...] to sociopathic tendencies.
    Have you tried that one in court yet?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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