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Thread: Mary was not a virgin...!

  1. #41
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    even to me it seems a bit churlish to diss christianity on christmas day!
    Wow! Can I have that written on gold paper and autographed, please? You really must be in a good mood

    Seriously, I hope you're having a good Christmas.

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    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Indeed. However, if Joseph had been his father, he would have been the son of Joseph, not the son of God.
    Why ? Are you suggesting something as mundane as "god sperm" ? surely if god can have a human mother, he can equally have a human father and it changes nothing, its still a birth by "non-natural" means. Why can't the son of god/god himself, be born the normal way ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Actually, he was neither. He was Jewish. Neither Christianity nor Wicca existed back then.
    Thats not what she said. She said "pagan". Even Christians were called pagans at one time so its often been a kind of a catch all label. So the founding of the wiccan religion is not relevant.

  3. #43
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    no proper form of transport just a donkey,
    Donkey was actually pretty good back then (they didn't have Holden or Ford).
    (and, of course, the donkey was probably stolen [or possibly donated under duress])

  4. #44
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    They were the Steven Spielbergs of their time. Not forgetting that their versions of events were written 80 years after Jesus was born.
    I guess your bible is different to mine. Where is the shark? Or the aliens?

  5. #45
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    However, as far as the Bible is concerned, it clearly stated that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, and any claim that any or all of those statements of the virgin birth are a mistranslation can for example be put to bed by just looking at her "How can this be?" reaction (when she was told she was with child by the Angel) because she knew she was a virgin.
    Yes. True. I agree. Certainly possible.

    One of my best friends, one of my early girlfriends, had an abortion once (long after she dumped me). So she was not a virgin, but her story to me was "It's not fair! We didn't actually have sex and I got pregnant."

    "How can this be?"

  6. #46
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    tells me Joseph and my husband have more in common than I ever gave the useless numpty credit for.
    Aren't you scared of going to hell for calling Joseph a useless numpty?

  7. #47
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    GUS my lover this is the Great in Great Britain....
    Our ability to discuss in a humourous way very serious issues, without causing offence.

    XXX XXX DTS Dave
    Unfortunately, the reason you feel able to do this is because you have a strong democratic system that allows discussion, and if all else fails, you have a monarch who is head of the church and thus a direct link to God.

    Surely the main reason you have such strong secular intellectual tradition is the safety of knowing whatever you do you are loyal to the Crown, and the Crown is appointed by God to be head of Church and State.

  8. #48
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Not sure about that.

    The focus of the whole Bible, especially the New Testament, is Jesus. The Bible teaches he was God and man, the son of God - so the virgin birth is part of that surely.

    However I don't understand all the technicalities of it - what's important to me is believing that Jesus was God, come to earth as man. Pretty amazing.
    [Blasphemy warning]
    There is so much argument about whether Mary was virgin. Does it matter? If it's still worth listening to after 2000 years, then whatever Jesus said is true or false regardless of whether his mother was virgin at his conception.

    If what Jesus says depends on his mother being a virgin when he was conceived then it is irrelevant to most humans -- it only applies to those girls who get pregnant when they are virgins, or to their children.
    [/Blasphemy warning]

  9. #49
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    As the Bible clearly teaches
    Which Bible? and (given the translation problems), how clearly?

  10. #50
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by xSalsa_Angelx View Post
    I came back to the forum for a nosy to see if there were any near by events and this thread caught my eye so i couldnt resist posting

    Personally i think the whole bible thing is a farse, there has been snippets taken from the pagan times, which existed well before christainity. I'm wiccan so i've read up on lots of things.

    but the reason i thought i'd post as i was having this conversation with my best friend the other day about Mary being a virgin.

    My theory is that Mary was not a virgin, Mary was a tart lol. She and Joseph was not married so they could not have sex before they got married, but Mary was feeeling too horny and could not contain herself, so while joesph was out herding the sheep or whtever he did, Mary was banging the local shepard down the road, but she could not tell Joseph that she was having an affair, so she then came up with the rubbish that she had been blessed as the virgin mary with a baby lol.

    2nd theory is that she caught JOseph having a wank one day cos he was horny too, and she thought she wanted a baby, careless Joseph left the condom full of his stuff near the bed, so mary went in, grabbed the condom wen he went back to work and turkey basted herself lol.

    and I'm sure Jesus was wiccan too he could heal others and was spiritual, so i believe he was pagan and was a healer, not a christian
    So you are saying two people in love/lust with each other play around with others to relieve their itches? It's a possible theory, except that (in my experience, and a huge amount of English literature) people in love/lust always go for their love/lust partner.
    If she was prepared to bang the shephard down the road, she would have slept with Joseph.

    he was pagan and was a healer, not a christian
    So I guess you believe Christians have never healed anything.

    And I'm pretty sure he was not a Christian (follower of Christ?). If he followed himself then he'd just be running around in circles, and nothing would be achieved.

  11. #51
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Which Bible? and (given the translation problems), how clearly?
    The standard one. You know, written in Greek (the New Testament part anyway) and translated into loads of other languages.

    Pretty clearly, too - not all parts of the Bible have translation difficulties. The gospels of Matthew and Luke are pretty unequivocal that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, whichever language you read them in.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Why ? Are you suggesting something as mundane as "god sperm" ?
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    [Blasphemy warning]
    There is so much argument about whether Mary was virgin. Does it matter? If it's still worth listening to after 2000 years, then whatever Jesus said is true or false regardless of whether his mother was virgin at his conception.
    It's important because it establishes his identity as the son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit. If he had a human father then he would not have been the son of God. And if he is not the son of God then a large amount of his teaching was actually meaningless.

    Oh, and IMO, asking genuine questions isn't anything like blasphemy, even from the perspective of a believer.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Unfortunately, the reason you feel able to do this is because you have a strong democratic system that allows discussion, and if all else fails, you have a monarch who is head of the church and thus a direct link to God.

    Surely the main reason you have such strong secular intellectual tradition is the safety of knowing whatever you do you are loyal to the Crown, and the Crown is appointed by God to be head of Church and State.
    Would that be the same for Aussies then, seeing as you have the same titular head of state? And where does that leave those of us who are republicans and/or Welsh or Scottish nationalists and therefore not particularly loyal to the Crown?

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    And I'm pretty sure he was not a Christian (follower of Christ?). If he followed himself then he'd just be running around in circles, and nothing would be achieved.
    I love it!

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Nope.

    It's important because it establishes his identity as the son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit. If he had a human father then he would not have been the son of God. And if he is not the son of God then a large amount of his teaching was actually meaningless.
    But we are all God's children.

    This is what Jesus was trying to put over.

    The fact that God was his father and everyone else's father too.

    He is quoted as saying that the things he did, we could do too.

    This is why the Jewish Synagogue hated him. They wanted people to believe only the Rabbis had a direct line to God.

    They didn't recognise Jesus as the son of God - or anyone else for that matter.

    The irony is that the Catholic religion, which is Christian and stems from Jesus, also taught that only the priests had a direct line to God.

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Nope.
    Pray tell what you are suggesting then ?

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Pray tell what you are suggesting then ?
    I'm suggesting this.

    From Matthew chapter 1, verses 18-21:

    This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

    But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
    From Luke chapter 1, verses 26-38:

    In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

    Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
    "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
    The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God."
    "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
    All I've been doing is trying to explain these passages in my own words. The upshot is that I believe what is written there. Jesus, I believe, did not have a human father, but was conceived by the Holy Spirit. How that happened I don't know.

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    Indeed. However, if Joseph had been his father, he would have been the son of Joseph, not the son of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Why ? Are you suggesting something as mundane as "god sperm" ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I'm suggesting this.

    <<bible quotes>>


    All I've been doing is trying to explain these passages in my own words. The upshot is that I believe what is written there. Jesus, I believe, did not have a human father, but was conceived by the Holy Spirit. How that happened I don't know.
    I'm familiar with the bible passages, thats not what I was getting at. You have your bible explanation of course, but I'm disagreeing with your original statement : If Joseph had been the father, Jesus could still be the son of god - i doubt the holy spirit, which is after all taking a supernatural part in this conception, would be inconvenienced by the presence of both a sperm and an egg. It hardly seems to matter to the whole "this baby is a god" idea really, does it Unless you ARE suggested something as mundane as god/holy spirit sperm

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I'm disagreeing with your original statement : If Joseph had been the father, Jesus could still be the son of god - i doubt the holy spirit, which is after all taking a supernatural part in this conception, would be inconvenienced by the presence of both a sperm and an egg.
    I don't think we're going to reach agreement on this one, DS.

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I do think that you have to believe it to be a Christian,
    I don't know whether to give you a virtual slap or feel sorry for you.

    Your attitude alienates people from their faith because they want to be faithful to God but don't want to believe in fairy stories.

    Blimey...even the Archbishop of Canterbury has questioned his belief...you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

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