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Thread: Mary was not a virgin...!

  1. #21
    Commercial Operator jive_me's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    She could have been a virgin.

    It sometimes happens that a baby girl is born who should have been a twin.

    The twin's egg is not fertilised, but lodges in the girl baby's womb.

    When the girl baby starts to menstuate in her teens the egg comes to "life" and grows in her womb to be a baby.

    So she gives birth to her twin brother or sister.

    And she is still a virgin when she gives birth.

    Simple explaination.

    Next.
    Fetus in fetu?

    Or was this a joke and I just missed the point

    xXx

  2. #22
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I was watching Christmas Voices on BBC1 this morning. I was fascinated to learn that when the Greeks translated the original Hebrew manuscript of the birth of Christ, they got it all wrong...

    "Look, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel."

    In fact 'Virgin' comes from Mattews use of a Greek mistranslation. The Hebrew in Isaiah reads 'Young Girl'.
    It's not that simple. Your quote is from Isaiah 7:14 and its meaning depends on how the Hebrew word 'almah is translated. Its meaning (which could either be taken as "young girl" or "virgin") has been debated for centuries, and a BBC programme doesn't exactly have much scholarly weight in deciding what the translation should be. Another point is that the original translation of the Old Testament into Greek was done by Greek-speaking Jews, not by Greeks. (See here for more information on that subject.)

    Also, that passage from Isaiah isn't an account of the birth of Christ, as it was written centuries before. It is believed by many to be a prophecy of his birth, but in fairness that's not the only way of interpreting the passage, nor even necessarily the most obvious way of interpreting it in context.

    On the other hand the gospels, or at least the two that mention Jesus' conception and birth (Matthew and Luke), are pretty clear that Mary was a virgin and that her child was "conceived by the Holy Spirit", however the Isaiah passage is translated. Whether or not you choose to believe in the factual accuracy of the gospel accounts is, of course, up to you, but that is the textual evidence and in my opinion it stands even if one accepts an alternative interpretation of the Isaiah passage.
    Last edited by Baruch; 24th-December-2007 at 04:57 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Whether or not you choose to believe in the factual accuracy of the gospel accounts is, of course, up to you,
    I know...that was the point of the program I was watching. Basically, as Gav has already said, you can have faith without belief.

    You can still be a Christian and believe in the teachings of the bible AND believe that Mary was not a virgin...the two things are completely separate.

  4. #24
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I know...that was the point of the program I was watching. Basically, as Gav has already said, you can have faith without belief.

    You can still be a Christian and believe in the teachings of the bible AND believe that Mary was not a virgin...the two things are completely separate.
    Not sure about that.

    The focus of the whole Bible, especially the New Testament, is Jesus. The Bible teaches he was God and man, the son of God - so the virgin birth is part of that surely.

    However I don't understand all the technicalities of it - what's important to me is believing that Jesus was God, come to earth as man. Pretty amazing.

  5. #25
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Not sure about that.

    The focus of the whole Bible, especially the New Testament, is Jesus. The Bible teaches he was God and man, the son of God - so the virgin birth is part of that surely.

    However I don't understand all the technicalities of it - what's important to me is believing that Jesus was God, come to earth as man. Pretty amazing.
    whats interesting at this time of year is... nowhere does the Bible mention Christmas , the puritans banned it in the 1600's for that reason. Why do Christians celebrate it at all ?

  6. #26
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    You can still be a Christian and believe in the teachings of the bible AND believe that Mary was not a virgin...the two things are completely separate.
    As the Bible clearly teaches that Mary was a virgin, it's more a case of either you believe the teachings of the Bible or you believe Mary wasn't a virgin. The two aren't compatible. As Lynn has said, the virgin birth is a central part of Christianity, as it establishes Jesus' identity as the divine son of God. If he had a human father he would not have been the son of God.

  7. #27
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    whats interesting at this time of year is... nowhere does the Bible mention Christmas , the puritans banned it in the 1600's for that reason. Why do Christians celebrate it at all ?
    Indeed. Jesus probably wasn't born in December at all. The reason we celebrate it is that we think it's important to celebrate the birth of our Saviour. When it happened isn't important; the fact that it did happen is.

    The reasons for Christmas being celebrated in December are simple: we nicked a pre-Christian festival and made it ours. Whether or not that was a good idea, it's traditional now.

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    As the Bible clearly teaches that Mary was a virgin, it's more a case of either you believe the teachings of the Bible or you believe Mary wasn't a virgin. The two aren't compatible. As Lynn has said, the virgin birth is a central part of Christianity, as it establishes Jesus' identity as the divine son of God. If he had a human father he would not have been the son of God.
    Answer me this then Baruch. Do you think that you HAVE to believe Mary was a virgin to believe in Jesus?

    I believe Jesus was a real person and that he was probably very wise. If we lived as he did then the world would be a better place, but I don't believe anything that is humanly impossible such as an immaculate conception.
    Last edited by Double Trouble; 24th-December-2007 at 03:28 PM.

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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by jive_me View Post
    Fetus in fetu?

    Or was this a joke and I just missed the point

    xXx
    No it's a medically proven thing.

    The teenage girl gives birth to her twin brither or sister.

    The parents of the baby are her mother and father, as her father fertilised her mother's egg which was "in situ" in the teenage girls womb from her birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Indeed. Jesus probably wasn't born in December at all. The reason we celebrate it is that we think it's important to celebrate the birth of our Saviour. When it happened isn't important; the fact that it did happen is.

    The reasons for Christmas being celebrated in December are simple: we nicked a pre-Christian festival and made it ours. Whether or not that was a good idea, it's traditional now.
    It was the Roman festival of Saturnalia which was held at the winter solistice (shortest day).

    Saturn was the Roman name for Cronus.

    Saturn was actually the god of agriculture, so very important.

    It was the one day of the year that the slaves had off work, and their masters waited on them.

  10. #30
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    The reasons for Christmas being celebrated in December are simple: we nicked a pre-Christian festival and made it ours. Whether or not that was a good idea, it's traditional now.
    Its good to have some time set aside to celebrate it, the actual date doesn't matter.

    DS is correct - the Bible doesn't say we need to celebrate Christmas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Why do Christians celebrate it at all ?
    Some don't - for that reason.

    So yes, its a church tradition to celebrate Christmas, but I like to as its such an important event - God becoming man - and all that went with that, right up to Christ's death and resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    When it happened isn't important; the fact that it did happen is.

  11. #31
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    As the Bible clearly teaches that Mary was a virgin, it's more a case of either you believe the teachings of the Bible or you believe Mary wasn't a virgin. The two aren't compatible. As Lynn has said, the virgin birth is a central part of Christianity, as it establishes Jesus' identity as the divine son of God. If he had a human father he would not have been the son of God.
    Some people believe parts of the Bible, but understand that other parts are simply human invention. Some of these people proclaim to be Christians – some even are (or were) fairly high up in their denominations.

    BBC News | UK | The vicars who don't believe in God

    The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom

    Quarter of clergy do not believe in the Virgin Birth
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  12. #32
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    As Lynn has said, the virgin birth is a central part of Christianity, as it establishes Jesus' identity as the divine son of God. If he had a human father he would not have been the son of God.
    Why not ? He had a human Mother didn't he ?

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    ......but I don't believe anything that is humanly impossible such as an immaculate conception.
    Why not ... far stranger things have happened ... and continue to happen. Things we regard as miracles or just 'very strange' .... ghosts, UFOs, people coming back from being clinically dead, dying from a broken heart, the popularity of X Factor ....

  14. #34
    Commercial Operator jive_me's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    No it's a medically proven thing.

    The teenage girl gives birth to her twin brither or sister.

    The parents of the baby are her mother and father, as her father fertilised her mother's egg which was "in situ" in the teenage girls womb from her birth.
    Sorry to off-topic again, but if you could provide some proof? As far as I was led to believe this type of situation cannot lead to a live-birth. The fetus lives as a parasite inside the host but cannot live outside of the human body.

    Sorry....

    xXx

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Answer me this then Baruch. Do you think that you HAVE to believe Mary was a virgin to believe in Jesus?
    No. I do think that you have to believe it to be a Christian, however.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Why not ? He had a human Mother didn't he ?
    Indeed. However, if Joseph had been his father, he would have been the son of Joseph, not the son of God.

  17. #37
    Angel with attitude! xSalsa_Angelx's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    I came back to the forum for a nosy to see if there were any near by events and this thread caught my eye so i couldnt resist posting

    Personally i think the whole bible thing is a farse, there has been snippets taken from the pagan times, which existed well before christainity. I'm wiccan so i've read up on lots of things.

    but the reason i thought i'd post as i was having this conversation with my best friend the other day about Mary being a virgin.

    My theory is that Mary was not a virgin, Mary was a tart lol. She and Joseph was not married so they could not have sex before they got married, but Mary was feeeling too horny and could not contain herself, so while joesph was out herding the sheep or whtever he did, Mary was banging the local shepard down the road, but she could not tell Joseph that she was having an affair, so she then came up with the rubbish that she had been blessed as the virgin mary with a baby lol.

    2nd theory is that she caught JOseph having a wank one day cos he was horny too, and she thought she wanted a baby, careless Joseph left the condom full of his stuff near the bed, so mary went in, grabbed the condom wen he went back to work and turkey basted herself lol.

    and I'm sure Jesus was wiccan too he could heal others and was spiritual, so i believe he was pagan and was a healer, not a christian

  18. #38
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by xSalsa_Angelx View Post
    and I'm sure Jesus was wiccan too he could heal others and was spiritual, so i believe he was pagan and was a healer, not a christian
    Actually, he was neither. He was Jewish. Neither Christianity nor Wicca existed back then.

    Arguably, Christianity came into being after Jesus' death and resurrection when the apostles started preaching.

    Arguably, Wicca came into being in 1954 when Gerald Gardner published "Witchcraft Today".

    So Jesus couldn't have been a Christian or a Wiccan.
    Last edited by Baruch; 25th-December-2007 at 04:30 AM.

  19. #39
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Quote Originally Posted by xSalsa_Angelx View Post
    Personally i think the whole bible thing is a farse,
    If that's what you choose to believe, that's your right. I disagree though.

    Quote Originally Posted by xSalsa_Angelx View Post
    there has been snippets taken from the pagan times, which existed well before christainity.
    Having a shared origin with some surviving documents from pagan religious traditions is not the same as having "snippets taken from the pagan times". The Bible was being written during those times, not after them.

    And yes, I have read some of those "pagan" sources (though I dislike using that term for them, as they actually come from quite different religious traditions): the hymns to the Aten, the Wisdom of Amenemope and parts of the Atrahasis Epic, to name a few. They are hardly the same as the biblical texts, though they share quite a few common features - hardly surprising, as they came from very similar cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by xSalsa_Angelx View Post
    I'm wiccan so i've read up on lots of things.
    So have many of us who attempt to follow Christ.
    Last edited by Baruch; 25th-December-2007 at 05:01 AM.

  20. #40
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    Re: Mary was not a virgin...!

    Discussing whether articles of modern christian faith result from mistranslations of the bible is a bit like arguing on the Titanic about whether icebergs are two-thirds under water or nine-tenths...

    ...but, it's christmas, and even to me it seems a bit churlish to diss christianity on christmas day!

    I hope everyone is having the best time they would wish for.

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