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Thread: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Constraints can also enable or facilitate expression. For example, without the constraint of dancing to the beat, it's not possible to "dance behind the beat" to express laziness, or "dance on top of the beat" to express aggression. Without the constraint of AABA phrases, it's harder to know what the music is about to do, and thus express that prediction within the dance. Without the constraint of a partner, it's harder to express love.
    Sorry, don't understand the argument
    I get the counterpoint (or whatever) off constraints thing, but a less constrained dance does not necessarily mean you cannot add those contraints if the partners so wish. That's the whole point, they are optional, to be used or not as required. In the constrained dance, they are not optional and thus that choice doesn't exist.

    The slottedness of WCS could be considered a constraint. Top US pros in there showcase routines aside, although the WCS slot is a lot softer than it used to be, it still very much exists. It is possible to play off that constraint in WCS to facilitate expression as you say.
    MJ, on the other hand, is not a slotted dance, in fact, it has no similar constraints at all, it can be danced slotted, rotational or any variable combination of both. Therefore, with MJ, you can dance with the constraint of slottedness, and counterpoint off it just like WCS dancers... or not. You could dance MJ rotationally and invent a world of expression just not available to WCS dancers.

    Of course, just how optional a constraint really is... that's another question.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I think at the highest level of every dance form they all start to loose their definition - it just becomes "dancing". At the pinical, the music seems to have been written to score the dance rather than the dancers dancing to the music.
    Mmmm - no. At those levels, the structures and patterns are all still there - it's just that the dancers can play with them to a much higher level. A top-level AT dance, for example, is hardly going to be mistaken for anything but Tango... same goes for most of the so-called 'defined' dances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    If you find the commonalities within every form of dance; balance, placement, control, moving within/to specific timeing
    But to a much lower standard than any other dance form I've ever done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    then MJ teaches all of these. I see no reason that a MJ dancer couldn't become just as good/better than one from any other discapline.
    Aforementioned lower standard makes that one pretty much a non-starter.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I get the counterpoint (or whatever) off constraints thing, but a less constrained dance does not necessarily mean you cannot add those contraints if the partners so wish. That's the whole point, they are optional, to be used or not as required. In the constrained dance, they are not optional and thus that choice doesn't exist.
    The problems occur when one person wants to operate within one set of constraints and the other a different set (or none what-so-ever). Suddenly the dance has just gotten to be much harder work for everyone involved and conventions can no longer be relied upon to help facilitate expression.

    [quote]Therefore, with MJ, you can dance with the constraint of slottedness, and counterpoint off it just like WCS dancers... or not. You could dance MJ rotationally and invent a world of expression just not available to WCS dancers.[QUOTE]To be honest, I'm having a hard job imagining some form of expression that not having the slot would enable over using one.

    Slot directions can be changed. The whole slot can be translated. You can perform all sorts of interlaced spinning moves through and around the slot. The only thing it specifies is a default orientation after all these acrobatics.

    I have yet to find a song that demanded I aligned us at 154 degrees from where we started, and that 180 degrees was just too far. I therefore choose to accept this "limitation" in return for the other benefits in expression it provides me.

    There are other methodologies as well of course.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    If I'm dancing West Coast, I can express rebelliousness by dancing off-slot. The constraint of the slot thus facilitates expression. If I'm dancing Modern Jive, I can't express rebelliousness in that way. I would need to express it in another way, such as by hijacking. The constraint of lead/follow thus facilitates expression.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Genevieve View Post
    When the beat slows I find that I really have to concentrate on what is coming next....almost trying to anticipate the next move, which in turn makes me falter......
    Good question and a good thread.

    I am making a sexist assumption that you are following ?

    If I were leading you I would try two things:
    To break the concentration I would try to distract you by engaging you in conversation, so that your subconscious 'muscle-memory' would just follow automatically without worrying about what was happening next.
    You don't need to concentrate much if well-led.

    To avoid anticipation, I would perversely dance even slower - precisely half-speed. That usually means concentration wanders, and there is no need to worry about the next move. After a few moves, switching back to full speed usually results in perfect timing due to relaxed dancing. It feels much better by contrast. Cruel ? Yes, but effective !

    Probably not many leaders would do this for you. They might be reading this, though ?

    Alcohol can help slow reaction times, but that can adversely affect things when a fast track comes on later.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    ... If I were leading you I would try two things:
    To break the concentration I would try to distract you by engaging you in conversation,...
    I do this with beginner ladies who are driving themselves to distraction trying to take it all in and worrying about what to do next.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I see no reason that a MJ dancer couldn't become just as good/better than one from any other discapline.
    There's no reason based on the dance form itself - it's just that MJ dancers aren't that good. And I think that's because of the MJ culture, at least in the UK - so I suspect that MJ dancers will never really be competitive with other dance forms, because of the lack of structure, definition, examination, training and so on within MJ culture.

    It's just a fun dance. And there's nothing wrong with that.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    If I'm dancing West Coast, I can express rebelliousness by dancing off-slot. The constraint of the slot thus facilitates expression. If I'm dancing Modern Jive, I can't express rebelliousness in that way. I would need to express it in another way, such as by hijacking. The constraint of lead/follow thus facilitates expression.
    Again, I don't see what is stopping an MJ couple from dancing in a slot and using your suggestion of dancing off-slot to express rebelliousness if they so wished.
    If your suggesting it would have more impact because the slot is a rule in WCS whereas it's just a style in MJ, I would probably agree. However, in order to gain that 'less than whole' advantage, WCS has had to lose the whole advantage from rotational dancing in order to create the impact advantage. Swings and roundabouts in the less constrained dance's favour.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    To be honest, I'm having a hard job imagining some form of expression that not having the slot would enable over using one.
    Surprized to hear you say that. I love WCS, nonetheless, it doesn't matter how much you spin the slot or 'translate it', it's still very much a two dimensional dance.
    Of course, like you said, this 'rule' gets weakened IRL. There's a clash going on IMO. The slot is almost what sets it apart from other dances that are swing based, use triples etc etc etc. The slot is a defining characteristic..... yet there is a reason why the top US pros seem to weaken that particular rule almost religiously

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    There's no reason based on the dance form itself - it's just that MJ dancers aren't that good. And I think that's because of the MJ culture, at least in the UK - so I suspect that MJ dancers will never really be competitive with other dance forms, because of the lack of structure, definition, examination, training and so on within MJ culture.

    It's just a fun dance. And there's nothing wrong with that.
    I think that the above is the reason that MJ is so successful. You don't have to be great, or even good, at MJ to be able to have fun.

    That doesn't mean you can't be great at MJ, it just means that the entry level is much lower than any other partner dance. Consider the ballroom and Latin dances or, to some extent, other swing dances. You need to go for months of lessons before you can make it around the floor with people who can already dance. At MJ you can mix it on the dance floor after a 45 minute lesson.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    ..... yet there is a reason why the top US pros seem to weaken that particular rule almost religiously
    I don't see that.

    The slots primary function is to guide momentum. You can pattern outside it all you like once the post has been set, as long as you've returned to the slot for the lead and applied the elastic stretch that is a characteristic of the dance.

    I see plenty of playing from the pros, but I don't see any ignoring these conventions, except possibly in routines. Breaking the lead/follow conventions in routines is hardly unusual in the greater dance community either.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Again, I don't see what is stopping an MJ couple from dancing in a slot and using your suggestion of dancing off-slot to express rebelliousness if they so wished.
    Well, yes. For example, as a follower, I could growl at my partner, "lead me in a slot!". Then, when he does so, I could ignore his lead and go off-slot to express rebelliousness. However, that would suck. Firstly I'd be trying to control what my partner leads me. Secondly I'd be doing so verbally. Thirdly I'd be ignoring his lead and breaking connection. Fourthly it wouldn't be particularly rebelliousness. All in all, it's a bad idea, and wouldn't get me a second dance.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Well, yes. For example, as a follower, I could growl at my partner, "lead me in a slot!". Then, when he does so, I could ignore his lead and go off-slot to express rebelliousness. However, that would suck. Firstly I'd be trying to control what my partner leads me. Secondly I'd be doing so verbally. Thirdly I'd be ignoring his lead and breaking connection. Fourthly it wouldn't be particularly rebelliousness. All in all, it's a bad idea, and wouldn't get me a second dance.
    LOL. We have danced then!!!

    Just kidding. I must admit, I was assuming some basic level of partner communication here, and I guess, some level of ability and technique to underpin all this wonderful expressive dancing.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    {MJ dancing}But to a much lower standard than any other dance form I've ever done.
    ~
    Aforementioned lower standard makes that one {MJ potential to be the best} pretty much a non-starter.
    Nonsense: just because I've seen a mess of paint on a paper dosn't imply that someone with tallent and skill can't paint a masterpeice.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    There's no reason based on the dance form itself - it's just that MJ dancers aren't that good. And I think that's because of the MJ culture, at least in the UK - so I suspect that MJ dancers will never really be competitive with other dance forms, because of the lack of structure, definition, examination, training and so on within MJ culture.

    It's just a fun dance. And there's nothing wrong with that.
    "competitive with other dance forms"? In terms of what?

    There is not really a shortage of training - you just have to seek it out rather than have it pushed in your face. Another aspect of the MJ culture.

    And rather than a lack of structure or definition, the main problem is that there is too much; too many things it could be; too many things you could be trying to do; too many options... the lead has to have more definition and the follower more open to variation. This is what makes it {IMHO} the easiest form to learn and the hardest form to master.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    "competitive with other dance forms"? In terms of what?
    In terms of the general level of dance ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    There is not really a shortage of training - you just have to seek it out rather than have it pushed in your face.
    No, I'm sorry, there really is a shortage of training, in things like technique - and even the best MJ teachers are not really at the level of the best in other dance forms. I've experience of salsa and AT, and the best dancers and teachers there are amazing - although there are also some truly abysmal ones in both, to be fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    And rather than a lack of structure or definition, the main problem is that there is too much; too many things it could be; too many things you could be trying to do; too many options... the lead has to have more definition and the follower more open to variation. This is what makes it {IMHO} the easiest form to learn and the hardest form to master.
    Agree

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Nonsense: just because I've seen a mess of paint on a paper dosn't imply that someone with tallent and skill can't paint a masterpeice.
    Leaving aside for a moment the fact that I haven't a clue what that means... do you seriously believe that purely through learning MJ, one can become a dancer of comparable skill to any of the Strictly pros? As has been said many times before - the chief strength and joy of MJ is its accessibility - but the flipside is that it is not a highly technical dance, and it doesn't teach pure dance skills to any great level.

    This is not a criticism of the dance in any way - I personally see it as a strength, not a weakness. But anyone wanting to really progress beyond a certain level as a dancer will have to look outside of MJ.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I was assuming some basic level of partner communication here, and I guess, some level of ability and technique to underpin all this wonderful expressive dancing.
    How would you use your ability and technique and partner communication to express rebelliousness in Modern Jive by dancing off-slot as a follower? How about as a leader?

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    How would you use your ability and technique and partner communication to express rebelliousness in Modern Jive by dancing off-slot as a follower? How about as a leader?
    I've no idea. Can't say I dance to a lot of rebellious music truth be told, so it's not something I would do or consider doing. That was all your example

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Leaving aside for a moment the fact that I haven't a clue what that means... do you seriously believe that purely through learning MJ, one can become a dancer of comparable skill to any of the Strictly pros? As has been said many times before - the chief strength and joy of MJ is its accessibility - but the flipside is that it is not a highly technical dance, and it doesn't teach pure dance skills to any great level.

    This is not a criticism of the dance in any way - I personally see it as a strength, not a weakness. But anyone wanting to really progress beyond a certain level as a dancer will have to look outside of MJ.
    Quoted for truth.

    This is a case where I think you need to accept the bad with the good Gadget.

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    Re: Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

    We've strayed a bit from the speed topic, but here goes:
    To speak of one thing as 'better than another' begs the question of how to define 'better'. In 'quality' circles the definition is 'fitness for purpose'. How can you judge one dance against another, unless both dances have a common aim against which they can be judged ?

    Even within MJ, different people will have different personal aims - competition, showing-off, exercise, <s>pulling</s>, socialising, networking, music, drink, chat, earning ...

    It can be seen as positioning in a marketplace. "Learn to dance the easy way - Learn to dance in one night". If that is seen as its purpose, then it can be rated as excellent.

    The relationship with other dances can also be good. We get so many new people each week, but attendance is pretty constant. Some people give up, but many move on to other dances. I think more people take up WCS, Salsa, Tango, Ballroom than if they had not been introduced to dance by MJ and to other dances at MJ weekender 'taster' workshops. I wonder if the leavers' survey supports this ? All healthy stuff - we get 'handed down' people that find other dances too hard, as well.

    Does anyone else think that is 'over the top' ? I would never want to look like that ! Sorry if that's you - I really enjoyed dancing with you in Blackpool ... and watching you dance.

    I think we can excel in the 'long tail' of people who have never danced - the bottom of the pyramid-shaped iceberg, if you like.

    There is a telling comment on YouTube - :
    As always with modern jive, it's not clear what's meant by "beginners". What period of tuition would be required ... to master these moves? Three or four years?

    We teach 21 beginner moves ... People ... often master them in 6 months. It's not about being masters though - it's about having fun and looking good.
    And we say 6 weeks (or 1 night in Scotland) !
    I thik they are from a ballroom background, and I find it stiff and unnatural. Arms are inelastic and there is a lot of signalling - both hands! Is that just a huge hand-bounce, or even a semi-circle ?

    Incidentally, I express my rebellious nature in Ceroc by dancing slotted ! If she ends a move having taken a step to her left, I take a step to my right. When we fetch up against a wall, the slot is stationary ! Sorry !)
    Last edited by EricD; 13th-January-2008 at 08:23 AM.

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