Slow vs Fast...is it a precision thing??

[WittyBird]

Blimey, it's the Ghost of Christmas past

Did you get a visit this Christmas then?

I'm still waiting for mine, must be 15 years Ive waited now?

So how was it? did it change you?

[David Bailey]

Did you get a visit this Christmas then?

Out of the victuals left out overnight. there was a half-eaten potato, a fully-consumed mince pie, and best of all several footprints in snow - or possibly flour. Hey, that's good enough for me, proof-wise.

[Mr Cool]

[

QUOTE=Jamie;439793]After comments like these, I had to actually take a look at the "propper" lindy scene, what I found really surprised me, I want to learn lindy now.

Yes there is such a thing as smooth lindy, it's

[/QUOTE]Dont believe there is such a thing as the proper lindy scene or balboa for that matter there are lots of different individual styles out there.
I for one prefer smooth. Steve Mitcheal is probably the best example of smooth ( he is teaching at the Woodside in Gloucester this spring)
I love lindy but hate the bouncy kicky stuff.
Many people will tell you lindy is based on charleston I dont agree.
There are probably more than a hundred variations on the charleston way to much time in my opinion is spent teaching this aspect of the dance.

For me the beauty and basis of the dance is leading smooth swing outs whips and circles with a follower who feels the music and wants to express the music in the dance.
The great strength of the dance is it is dynamic and can be danced to fast and slow tracks and by the way it can be danced to a variety of music not just swing
Balboa is another dance that is often murdered by the bouncy and kicky brigade.
This is a great dance for confined spaces and can be danced to the fastest music and when danced well is smooth as silk

[straycat]

I for one prefer smooth. Steve Mitcheal is probably the best example of smooth ( he is teaching at the Woodside in Gloucester this spring)

Steve Mitchell is plain wonderful, and yep - he's definitely one of the kings of smooth Lindy...

Many people will tell you lindy is based on charleston I dont agree.
There are probably more than a hundred variations on the charleston way to much time in my opinion is spent teaching this aspect of the dance.

You'd be right - Lindy is not based on Charleston. How it started seems to vary according to what version you listen to, but the popular explanation is that it was simply a variation on a move called 'The Breakaway', with a bit of flash improvised footwork, and it was developed from there. People then brought in other moves from other dances, which is why so many Charleston moves were incorporated - and I agree that if those are done badly, they tend to look a bit pants. Done well though, they're something else IMO.

Balboa is another dance that is often murdered by the bouncy and kicky brigade.

Have to confess - I've not seen that, and I've never seen Balbod dances as a kicky dance (I find it hard to imagine, truth be told...)

This is a great dance for confined spaces and can be danced to the fastest music and when danced well is smooth as silk

[Gadget]

This is a great dance for confined spaces and can be danced to the fastest music and when danced well is smooth as silk

MJ is great, isn't it

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[straycat]

MJ is great, isn't it

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I look forward to seeing your 280bpm confined-space MJ demo with great ... anticipation...

[Mr Cool]

MJ is great, isn't it

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Totally agree MJ is such a wonderful free dance I love it.

What I love is the adaptabilty of the followers.
It is quite possible to lead ladies into many other dances and back into MJ and they all seem to love it.
I cant think of any dance that allows so much self expresion.
Long live MJ

[straycat]

I cant think of any dance that allows so much self expresion.

Honestly? I don't think any of the other partner dances I've done allow for any less self-expression than MJ.

For ultimate self-expression though, I think you'd probably need to veer outside of the partner-dance sphere, and start looking at something like contemporary...

[fletch]

Totally agree MJ is such a wonderful free dance I love it.

What I love is the adaptabilty of the followers.
It is quite possible to lead ladies into many other dances and back into MJ and they all seem to love it.
I cant think of any dance that allows so much self expresion.
Long live MJ

even Tango so I have heard

[Minnie M]

Honestly? I don't think any of the other partner dances I've done allow for any less self-expression than MJ....

I love smooth lindy and Steve Mitchell is my hero, I also love WCS, but MJ is still my favourite dance and when danced well with a good lead allows just as much self-expression as all the swing dances

I cant think of any dance that allows so much self expresion.
Long live MJ

[David Bailey]

even Tango so I have heard

Tango allows more self-expression, as it's not bound by the music - and there's more "built-in" musicality taught.

[straycat]

...but MJ is still my favourite dance and when danced well with a good lead allows just as much self-expression as all the swing dances

Why the frownie? I didn't say anything that contradicts that...

I'll clarify. I do not believe that MJ allows for more self expression than any of the other partner dances I've done. I never said, however, that it was inherently any less expressive. I'll leave that to DJ

[David Bailey]

I'll clarify. I do not believe that MJ allows for more self expression than any of the other partner dances I've done. I never said, however, that it was inherently any less expressive. I'll leave that to DJ

Well OK then

If you take something like salsa, I think MJ allows for more self-expression - salsa musicality / expression is pathetic, the musical structure's just far too strict to allow it, and most dancers never develop those skills.

With MJ, you're less bound by the musical structure. However, there still is a musical structure - at least for mainstream MJ pop-y tracks - so there still is something that enforces / suggests a structure. A typical pop track doesn't inherently allow a lot of self-expression that way.

With AT, in my opinion, the musical structure is far less mandatory. Most traditional AT tracks don't have a heavy backbeat, they're basically just a series of suggestions for musical interpretation, which can be ignored or acknowledged - and ignoring them won't kill the dance experience.

So if you equate "musicality" with "self-expression" (I know, they're not the same), then AT has more opportunities in that way.

[straycat]

salsa musicality / expression is pathetic, the musical structure's just far too strict to allow it, and most dancers never develop those skills.

Got to take issue with this one point - while I agree that most dancers I've seen in this country never develop it, the ones I've seen who do are able to put in every bit as much self-expression as I've ever seen in MJ. The music and musical structure do allow it, and allow people to 'play' to a phenomenal extent - and if you go to the right places, you'll see the results of that. It's just that for whatever reason, most people don't seem to learn it - maybe simply because it's a lot harder to do than in the looser structure of MJ, maybe because the musical structures of Salsa don't come as naturally to us in this country (to name but two possibilities).

The best Salsa dances I've seen around here have been a revelation - they were pure connection dances, with no set moves to speak of, purely improvised, and showing an incredible in-depth understanding of the music, playing with the timing, with the musical structures, and beautifully expressive to a level that only the best MJ dancers could ever achieve. It's a far cry from what one normally sees on any dancefloor, Salsa, MJ, whatever, but I think it's something that could potentially be seen on just about any dancefloor. Doesn't matter what the dance is - it's the dancers that make it special.

[Gadget]

A typical pop track doesn't inherently allow a lot of self-expression that way.

With AT, in my opinion, the musical structure is far less mandatory. Most traditional AT tracks don't have a heavy backbeat, they're basically just a series of suggestions for musical interpretation, which can be ignored or acknowledged - and ignoring them won't kill the dance experience.

So if you equate "musicality" with "self-expression" (I know, they're not the same), then AT has more opportunities in that way.

I think that your inerpritation is more to do with listening and hearing what is in a track rather than what is possible within it. You have spent time listening to tango music and being shown various elements. If you analyse pop music, techno music, clubbing music, etc. then you could have just as much to work with.

In saying that, if you find there is less in the music to draw uppon, then you have to draw uppon your partner and yourself; allowing more to come from you and being less constrained by the music.

I have seen contemporary dancing to a metronome that contains more expression and interpretation than I have ever seen in any partner dance. All the music can do is suggest; it is up to the dancers and their connection to interperate that.

With any "structured" form of dance like AT, Salsa, WCS, Lindy, Ballroom... etc. you have to place constraints on it; otherwise it's not that dance form. It's these constraints that actually define it. Within the remit of being a partner dance, there are only really two restraints within MJ: Don't endanger your partner and don't endanger other dancers. You can do anything. How much more self-expression can you have??

[David Bailey]

Got to take issue with this one point - while I agree that most dancers I've seen in this country never develop it, the ones I've seen who do are able to put in every bit as much self-expression as I've ever seen in MJ.

Mmm. "Self-expression", maybe. All those silly shines and stuff. Musicality, no, at least not to the degree available in some other dances.

The best Salsa dances I've seen around here have been a revelation - they were pure connection dances, with no set moves to speak of, purely improvised, and showing an incredible in-depth understanding of the music, playing with the timing, with the musical structures, and beautifully expressive to a level that only the best MJ dancers could ever achieve.

Where were these paragons? Coz they sound

[TA Guy]

With any "structured" form of dance like AT, Salsa, WCS, Lindy, Ballroom... etc. you have to place constraints on it; otherwise it's not that dance form. It's these constraints that actually define it.

Must admit that is my take on it as well.
Structure, to a certain extent, defines the dance. The more of that structure there is, the more constraints there are, the less scope there is for expression (and improvisation).
Of course, that still leaves oddles of room for expression in most dances.

[MartinHarper]

Structure, to a certain extent, defines the dance. The more of that structure there is, the more constraints there are, the less scope there is for expression (and improvisation).

Constraints can also enable or facilitate expression. For example, without the constraint of dancing to the beat, it's not possible to "dance behind the beat" to express laziness, or "dance on top of the beat" to express aggression. Without the constraint of AABA phrases, it's harder to know what the music is about to do, and thus express that prediction within the dance. Without the constraint of a partner, it's harder to express love.

[NZ Monkey]

Constraints can also enable or facilitate expression. For example, without the constraint of dancing to the beat, it's not possible to "dance behind the beat" to express laziness, or "dance on top of the beat" to express aggression. Without the constraint of AABA phrases, it's harder to know what the music is about to do, and thus express that prediction within the dance. Without the constraint of a partner, it's harder to express love.

I don't think it's co-incidence that the most musically expressive people I can think of are all very aware of the way music and their dance is structured to make the most of opportunities to express themselves.

[Gadget]

Constraints can also enable or facilitate expression. For example, without the constraint of dancing to the beat, it's not possible to "dance behind the beat" to express laziness, or "dance on top of the beat" to express aggression.

What you are talking about here are the definitions and boundaries (ie constraints) we use to define [/i]Dance[/i] - to say this is and this is not. Dancing to the beat (and outwith it) is common to every style, dancing to a specific beat/pattern is specific form/style of dance.

I think at the highest level of every dance form they all start to loose their definition - it just becomes "dancing". At the pinical, the music seems to have been written to score the dance rather than the dancers dancing to the music.

If you find the commonalities within every form of dance; balance, placement, control, moving within/to specific timeing,... then MJ teaches all of these. I see no reason that a MJ dancer couldn't become just as good/better than one from any other discapline.