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Thread: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Inspired by discussion on another thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I don't like pretzels because they involve lots of arm movement, but not much actual movement. Also, they're difficult to break down into useful steps, so they don't involve much lead-and-follow. Also, they're naff.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    You're pretty much pulling your follower around in a circle - there's not exactly much leading involved, and the following is limited to "not wanting one's shoulder dislocated". And yes, I know, the same applies to the straitjacket...
    Personally I believe a successful pretzel requires as much lead and follow as most moves in MJ. I also do not see how you are 'pulling your follower around in a circle'. The leader and follower simply change places on the slot a couple of times and this requires the leader to lead the follower in those changes of direction. I admit that the need to lose the tension/tone in the frame (assuming there is any there to begin with ) for parts of the move in order to avoid that shoulder dislocation adds a degree of awkwardness to the move but no less so than many other common moves e.g comb, half-nelson. A decent lead should be able to transmit through their own arm tension and shape what they require of the follower (and through the same mechanism sense when a follower is not 'loosening up' and abort the move if necessary)

    As for the offering of the spare hand behind the back that tends to initiate the move - is this a signal upon which the move is reliant? Yes, it's a signal but so is any move involving offering a hand for the follower to take - I'd say it was more of a convention of the dance. If the lead offers a hand, followers take it.
    Last edited by robd; 19th-December-2007 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Capital Offence

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    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    I believe I lead a pretzel. I agree the basic move involves little footwork for the leader -- so this is one move where I experiment with footwork.

    I actually do variations on false pretzels more often than I lead a real pretzel.
    And most often I don't bother with the hand behind my back.

    If I don't want the girl to take my hand, why offer it?
    If I lead the girl to move forwards, and I move to my right, then she will pass behind me regardless of whether I am offering a hand behind my back.

    If I also offer my hand she will take it, and I mght then continue to a pretzel (or I might find something else to do from that position).

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Inspired by discussion on another thread





    Personally I believe a successful pretzel requires as much lead and follow as most moves in MJ. I also do not see how you are 'pulling your follower around in a circle'. The leader and follower simply change places on the slot a couple of times and this requires the leader to lead the follower in those changes of direction. I admit that the need to lose the tension/tone in the frame (assuming there is any there to begin with ) for parts of the move in order to avoid that shoulder dislocation adds a degree of awkwardness to the move but no less so than many other common moves e.g comb, half-nelson. A decent lead should be able to transmit through their own arm tension and shape what they require of the follower (and through the same mechanism sense when a follower is not 'loosening up' and abort the move if necessary)

    As for the offering of the spare hand behind the back that tends to initiate the move - is this a signal upon which the move is reliant? Yes, it's a signal but so is any move involving offering a hand for the follower to take - I'd say it was more of a convention of the dance. If the lead offers a hand, followers take it.

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    I can't see why you need to offer the hand for the pretzel in freestyle. It simply starts with a double hand hold and the guy turns himself under his left hand to Nelson his right hand - then he starts the pretzel. The rest of the move is completely leadable. The rule (which isn't hard and fast) is that you lead the lady's direction of travel with the hand nearest her centre of gravity, you lead the turns by raising the hand to turn the lady. The pretzel combines these two actions rather nicely.

    Having said the above, when I teach the pretzel in the intermediate lesson I do talk about offering the hand behind the back as the other way of getting into the move is a bit hard for guys who've only had six lessons.

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    If I don't want the girl to take my hand, why offer it?
    For the double-take reaction

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Pretzel is lead via signal by me yet I know I can do it without the signal because I have on occasion.

    Now for off topicness...

    Double preztel is lead but sabotaged often by the follower turning early without being led to do so.

    Continuous preztel provides rest for a lazy fellow like me!

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Double preztel is lead but sabotaged often by the follower turning early without being led to do so.
    There's a way of leading it (probably more than one, in fact) which generally prevents this - fairly subtle and much easier to show than to describe, but quite possible.

    On the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Continuous preztel provides rest for a lazy fellow like me!
    Where's CeeCee with her - ahem - mild dislike - of continuous pretzels when you need her?

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    There's a way of leading it (probably more than one, in fact) which generally prevents this - fairly subtle and much easier to show than to describe, but quite possible.
    Fairly? I don't want to wrestle people. But I assume you know exactly what I was referring to re the sabotage!!!
    Last edited by Steven666; 19th-December-2007 at 05:48 PM. Reason: To correct my crap spelling!

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Fairly? I don't want to qrestle people. But I assume you know exactly what I was referring to re the sabotage!!!
    Think so - I've always seen it as anticipation - most experienced followers have done about 30 million pretzels in the time they've been dancing, and as many pretzels are led in a .... minimalist ... fashion, this is quite understandable. The trick is to use a slightly different lead, in a gentle, fairly subtle fashion, at just the right moment. It pre-empts that early turn. No wrestling required - given the nature of the pretzel, any use of force is a Bad Thing(TM) - (so you can put the snake oil away)

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Continuous preztel provides rest for a lazy fellow like me!
    Lazy people should stay home and watch TV rather than inflict themselves on followers who might want an interested and active leader.

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Being in the "I don't do pretzels" camp, my knowledge of them is probably a bit suspect, but I have done them in the past, and have been taught them a few times.

    I think straycat's observation about anticipation is key here. The pretzel is pure lead-and-follow, but many followers just go into "automatic pretzel mode" when given the magic pretzel signal. The false pretzel relies on this anticipation for the pay-off. (Aside: do signals lead to greater levels of anticipation?)

    The basic problem with the pretzel signal is that it is always understood as the pretzel signal even if it is for a false pretzel. The false pretzel wouldn't be called the false pretzel if it didn't use the pretzel signal, it's be called something like a "left-side turn".

    Anyway, the pretzel signal differs from a simple offered hand, as most offered hands are not directly associated with a move. (Though there's the obvious double-handed yoyo, and related "secret" moves. I don't do these moves either. Maybe I just don't like secrets...)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Lazy people should stay home and watch TV rather than inflict themselves on followers who might want an interested and active leader.

    Lol. I almost take pride in virtually never concentrating. Me thinking is just a too scary thought, lol.

    *makes post while lying in bed - true*

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Pretzels work best when they are correctly led and they are followed best when the follow listens to the leaders tension and mimics it.

    I'd agree they're pure lead and follow. As such they do not need a signal, instead they just need a simple offer of the hand behind the back with the right arm.

    I don't usually lead pretzels and only lead them in freestyle if I've taught them that night. I'm not a very arm-y person when it comes to dancing, I used to like all these arm all over the place moves, as does any intermediate dancer when they've been dancing a few months, but I think one does eventually grow out of them! Me included.. Give me a basket pull and pivot any day!

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Lol. I almost take pride in virtually never concentrating. Me thinking is just a too scary thought, lol.

    *makes post while lying in bed - true*
    Give up dancing. Give up posting on a dance forum. Take up computer games ...

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    *makes post while lying in bed - true*
    I thought lying in bed was more of a female trait.

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Give up dancing. Give up posting on a dance forum. Take up computer games ...
    A do play a LOT of computer games!

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I'd agree they're pure lead and follow. As such they do not need a signal, instead they just need a simple offer of the hand behind the back with the right arm.
    It could be argued that that's a signal.

    I tend to do it from a double-handhold myself (similar to what Andy describes)

    Come to think though, from a move that I used to do at least once every dance, last time I went to Ceroc (a week ago), I don't think I used it at all.

    In fact, I think it was my most move-free since I started dancing - must've used no more than five set 'moves' for the whole evening, and I only sat out for two tracks. Oops. Digressing again...

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Last night a reverse pretzel was taught go straight from a normal one, but is there an easy way to lead a reverse preztel on it's own, without the follow thinking it's just a sort of double handed yoyo thingy?

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    A do play a LOT of computer games!
    And "B" is?

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And "B" is?
    I'm soooo close to pressing the ignore button!

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    Re: Pretzels - lead & follow or signalled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Last night a reverse pretzel was taught go straight from a normal one, but is there an easy way to lead a reverse preztel on it's own, without the follow thinking it's just a sort of double handed yoyo thingy?

    Side to side (let go)... Trail your right hand across the ladies back to get her left hand.

    'Signal' with your left arm behind your back bent in the half nelson position like a regular pretzel. Have fun.

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