Franco's Weekenders

[Chef]

I will be going to Francos' weekender at Hayling Island. I am interested to see what he makes of it, it is reasonably close for me and it sits on a convenient date as I/we have a lot of other events around that time of year and this event means we won't have to have two weekenders back to back.

I know that Franco is a bit cut up about feeling forced out of Camber, that he is the origional and the best, etc. I don't always like the tactics that Ceroc APPEAR to use - of not having any interest in something until someone else builds up a client base and then moving in either next door or into the same venue BUT that is business and it is a tough world.

As a punter I like Franco but I just don't care if he was the origional, I only care if he is the best and if I like the product he is providing at the price he is charging.

For me the best weekenders are Rockbottoms and Southport. I am just interested in what Franco is going to make of his new event. Will he come out of the starting gate with a fresh and invigorated product or will he fumble and drop the ball? If the first one doesn't turn out to be a pleasant surprise then with the market as competative as it is, I feel future events would be on the slide.

If Franco can forget his disappointment and frustration at being out of Camber and focus on on the future of his new event with a good crew at his side then I feel he has every chance of making a good product. It is now in his hands. His competitors are serious and capable. Anything less from him at this point will see his events demise.

[stewart38]

Franco has said by e-mail

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• We have decided to pull out from the current discussions with third parties in respect of jointly organizing future jive weekends at Camber Sands.
• We will not organize any jive weekends at Camber Sands in 2008 because our traditional dates in April/May and November have not been made available

-------------


However I assume Pontins/Butlins have ‘deals’ with weekenders that can run a set number of years ahead. Or is that wrong is the best bidder chosen for each weekender for each year ?

Maybe the numbers didn’t add up for Franco and he allowed the spaces to go. However he says Pontns didn’t make the dates available to him but after 10yrs + that sounds odd

Maybe they put the price up and he pulled out?

If ceroc wanted to look at Southport I assume it needs a slot and can get that on price??

Either a cancellation in 2008 or sound them out in 2009?

Anyone worked for Pontins/ Butlins or know how they look at bids set ups for weekenders

[Lynn]

Franco is moving on and doing something new. Good for him.

I really hope the 'Ceroc going for Southport' is just a silly rumour - its not just the venue that makes Southport work and it would be an admission of failure at working out their own formula for good weekenders if Ceroc tried to get in there - it would look like they were trying to copy JA. And if their weekenders didn't sell as well as JA's in the same venue they'd just end up looking silly (especially if Ceroc's were cheaper!)

I think Ceroc offer a good product, Southport offers a different one and Franco will be now offering something different again.

That means choice, variety and something for everyone.

[Rocky]

Not sure where you get your numbers from, I have a close friend (cerocer) who sadly some would say went to all Cambers this year, he reports Jivetime events were much busier that Cerocs events, if the one last month was busy he says then the ceroc..

Well, apart from knowing a lot of people who do attend both the Ceroc and JiveTime Camber weekenders who have said this, there is also this little lot that was posted on the 'Jive Time Camber Nov 2007 Aftermath' thread..

To bring the thread back on-topic, I'll comment about the weekend.

First of all, numbers were down, probably about 1,000 dancers. From a punters point of view, this is fabulous. It means there's still plenty of people to dance with, but it's not too crowded for dancing. From a business point of view it's not good to have a drop in sales..

The turnout was okay... I always have a good time at weekenders, and I've nothing against Franco, but as a punter, in my opinion, lets just say there is generally more room for improvement than any other organisations weekenders I've been on. Jivetime weekenders give me the feeling they have run their course, a slight 'rundown' feel compared to all the others...

So Franco's era finishes with what felt like quite a low key blues room, still with brilliant dancers there, but not in the same numbers as years gone by, but I'm looking forward to whatever the future brings.
Greg

Maybe one day (unlikely) will get the truth rather than us all guessing.

I'm not guessing..

I havent seen the flyer David mentions but if "F" is attacking "C" there must be a reason...

Umm... well... Ceroc is now his biggest competitor in the South and he dislikes the organization with a passion because his monopoly has been broken and this has forced him to compete more effectively which costs him profit - do you think that it might just be possible that this is the real reason?

I know that Franco is a bit cut up about feeling forced out of Camber...

So to be clear.. Franco wasn't 'forced' out of Camber. How he dealt with Pontins and 3rd parties interested in working with him led to his own demise.

If Franco can forget his disappointment and frustration at being out of Camber and focus on on the future of his new event with a good crew at his side then I feel he has every chance of making a good product. It is now in his hands. His competitors are serious and capable. Anything less from him at this point will see his events demise.

Exactly, and well said - he doesn't do himself any favours by PUBLICLY blaming other people for problems he has created because it's as transparent now as it's always been. He now needs to concentrate on doing the best he can from what is available to him, rather than to waste time on insinuation and bickering.

[Sugarfoot]

Attacking southport would be interesting, i wonder when thats booked up to or how far you can book an event ahead

What a strange coment to make. Do you not like choice???

[stewart38]

What a strange coment to make. Do you not like choice???

Of course I do i dont want ceroc at Southport , just wonder if they would try

That would stink

[Lynn]

What a strange coment to make. Do you not like choice???

Choice of different organisers at the same venue doesn't seem to work. There was choice at Camber and there isn't now.

[Rocky]

Of course I do i dont want ceroc at Southport , just wonder if they would try

That would stink

You see, I have a real problem with that kind of comment and I'll explain why. Pontins have been reviewing there pricing policy for a while now and this is slowly filtering down through the areas.

If Pontins put the price up at Southport (and I honestly have no idea if they are planning this or not) and JA choose not to continue at that venue because the financials don't add up for them - why would Ceroc taking the slot 'stink'?

Remember Ceroc's motive in weekenders is slightly different to both Jive Time's and JA's. Ceroc don't assess weekenders solely on a profit driven perspective. Sure they would like to make money, but as a National company they see weekenders as a way of supporting their franchisees, for building brand awareness and also as a service to their members. On that basis the profit equation is less important.

Whilst my own view, based on people's feedback, is that JA give more value for money than JT and that Jon and Wes are also more passionate about what they do, the reality is that they would probably still have to consider the financials in a different way to Ceroc.

These things are never as 1 dimensional as many of you believe because you're not privey to all the information - so can we get some perspective here please?

[Lynn]

These things are never as 1 dimensional as many of you believe because you're not privey to all the information - so can we get some perspective here please?

Absolutely. None of us can comment on what goes on behind the scenes and its pretty pointless to speculate. We can only say what it looks like from the point of view of the punter and regular weekender attendees.

And while I think you've been talking a fair amount of sense on this thread Rocky, you have had a past policy of 'jump on anyone who is in any way slightly critical of Ceroc', even if trying to look at things from a punters point of view - so you haven't given yourself a very sound basis on this forum to talk about getting perspective.

But maybe you're taking a new angle now?

[Rocky]

Absolutely. None of us can comment on what goes on behind the scenes and its pretty pointless to speculate. We can only say what it looks like from the point of view of the punter and regular weekender attendees.

And while I think you've been talking a fair amount of sense on this thread Rocky, you have had a past policy of 'jump on anyone who is in any way slightly critical of Ceroc', even if trying to look at things from a punters point of view - so you haven't given yourself a very sound basis on this forum to talk about getting perspective.

But maybe you're taking a new angle now?

I think your comment on me 'jumping on ANYONE who critisizes Ceroc' is a little unfair - I might take exception to the odd person who speculates on issues without any expertise, evidence or information to back it up - or those that make false or delibrately provocative statements. And in fact on a number of occasions have myself said that the Ceroc network is far from perfect...

But you're right, I am a softer more gentle soul these days and carry a much smaller stick - it's still got a very sharp point on the end though..

[Andy McGregor]

But you're right, I am a softer more gentle soul these days and carry a much smaller stick - it's still got a very sharp point on the end though..

And a lot of the time he gets it the wrong way around and sticks himself in the eye

[Raul]

You see, I have a real problem with that kind of comment and I'll explain why. Pontins have been reviewing there pricing policy for a while now and this is slowly filtering down through the areas.

If Pontins put the price up at Southport (and I honestly have no idea if they are planning this or not) and JA choose not to continue at that venue because the financials don't add up for them - why would Ceroc taking the slot 'stink'?

As you are talking of "Ifs", try this one -

If Pontins suspect/are.whispered.to that some organisation was prepared/eager/more.than.willing to offer more on certain venues than the current occupiers Pontins would be unlikely to leave the prices the same.

just an "if" of course! Mind how you waive your little stick Rocky

[Lynn]

I think your comment on me 'jumping on ANYONE who critisizes Ceroc' is a little unfair -

Yeah OK, just because you jumped on me a couple of times...

But I wasn't being a ...

..person who speculates on issues without any expertise, evidence or information to back it up - or those that make false or delibrately provocative statements.

But you'd never make a provocative statement about anyone would you...

But you're right, I am a softer more gentle soul these days and carry a much smaller stick - it's still got a very sharp point on the end though..

I've always been a soft and gentle soul...

[Double Trouble]

soft and gentle soul

I thought that was a new deodorant range.

[Sugarfoot]

Choice of different organisers at the same venue doesn't seem to work. There was choice at Camber and there isn't now.

I think you have misunderstood me Lynn. I was quoting the comment by stewart38 about Ceroc moving into Southport as interesting. This is the last thing I would want to see. Ceroc weekenders are good, but they are by and large the same. JA offer something very different and I for one would like to keep it that way. IMO, Choice can only be maintained by organisations staying out of each others venues. There are not enough dancers to maintain such situations and it is obvious that one of them will eventually fold.

Whilst my own view, based on people's feedback, is that JA give more value for money than JT and that Jon and Wes are also more passionate about what they do, the reality is that they would probably still have to consider the financials in a different way to Ceroc.

Sorry Dave, I know this all speculation and I have never wanted to take sides on this, but yes John and Wes are very passionate about what they do. In terms of teachers, DJs, caberets etc they offer a higher level than any Ceroc weekender. This costs money. It would be difficult for them to offer such a fantastic weekender if they had to compete financialy against Ceroc in the same venue.

Busness maybe business, but surely there is also common decency to consider.

[Lynn]

I think you have misunderstood me Lynn. I was quoting the comment by stewart38 about Ceroc moving into Southport as interesting. This is the last thing I would want to see. Ceroc weekenders are good, but they are by and large the same. JA offer something very different and I for one would like to keep it that way. IMO, Choice can only be maintained by organisations staying out of each others venues. There are not enough dancers to maintain such situations and it is obvious that one of them will eventually fold.

Sorry, yes I did misunderstand. I thought you meant we should have choice of organiser at the same venue as I thought S38 was saying he didn't think think it would be good for Ceroc to try to run an event at SP.

Southport is what it is not because of the venue, but because of what John and Wes have built over the years, constantly listening to customer feedback and improving their event.

I like that there is choice and that JA and Ceroc offer different things.

[David Bailey]

So, about Franco's weekenders...

[Andy McGregor]

So, about Franco's weekenders...

Don't be silly

So, about Rocky's small, but pointy, stick ...

[stewart38]

You see, I have a real problem with that kind of comment and I'll explain why. Pontins have been reviewing there pricing policy for a while now and this is slowly filtering down through the areas.

If Pontins put the price up at Southport (and I honestly have no idea if they are planning this or not) and JA choose not to continue at that venue because the financials don't add up for them - why would Ceroc taking the slot 'stink'?

Remember Ceroc's motive in weekenders is slightly different to both Jive Time's and JA's. Ceroc don't assess weekenders solely on a profit driven perspective. Sure they would like to make money, but as a National company they see weekenders as a way of supporting their franchisees, for building brand awareness and also as a service to their members. On that basis the profit equation is less important.

Whilst my own view, based on people's feedback, is that JA give more value for money than JT and that Jon and Wes are also more passionate about what they do, the reality is that they would probably still have to consider the financials in a different way to Ceroc.

These things are never as 1 dimensional as many of you believe because you're not privey to all the information - so can we get some perspective here please?

I’ll clarify what I meant i.e. ceroc put on a weekender at Southport a month before or after a Jive addiction event

If Jive addiction pull out because of money issues that’s a different matter

The fact ceroc have increase the share with a stranger prices by a whapping 33 times greater then inflation (i.e. from £29 to £59) makes the other comments rather biaswhich is to be expected

I don’t have a real issue with that £29 going to £59 it was a loss leader anyway to get punters away from the existing businesses

Id expect it to be £79 or £89 next year for share with a stranger and of course ceroc will use weekenders for other reasons but their a business not a charity

If the gender balance thing doesn’t work long term this will be relax as well (all events not just ceroc)

No business model will support turning away 200 women who want to pay £100 each

something like book 4 men with 5 women additional 5th man goes free will happen

[David Bailey]

Don't be silly

I know, call me Sisyphus.

So, about Rocky's small, but pointy, stick ...

Oooh, I really really want to hear a lot more about that.