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Thread: Effective martial art?

  1. #61
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    If your friend wants to defend then Karate is the only choice.
    If your friend wants to attack then the chouce would have to be kickboxing.

    However

    If your friend is in the situation where he needs to react, it takes a very cool head and only if you have been trained well and long can your teaching be of benifit. Mostley instinct will take over and you run or street fight.
    TKD defensive sport....

    Kickboking is not an attaking sport......

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Well, I go on vacation and come back to see a thread I'd have love to be involved in from the first page....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Mate if mine is interested in taking up martial arts, with a view to being 'street capable', i.e. if something kicked off he would be able to defend himself in a street situation.
    It sounds to me like you're friend wants to learn how to fight, rather than learn self defense.

    If this is true, I suggest he gets his head examined. Fighting hurts, a lot. It's also usually entirely unnecessary if your self defense skills were up to the task. Self defense means literally that - doing what it takes to avoid injury. Avoiding situations where that can happen (like fighting ) is the easily best way of achieving this. Martial artists often fall into the trap of thinking that they have the skills to protect themselves in a fight. Sometimes this is true to a certain extent, but ego often grows faster than ability does.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Seriously? Learn to run. Optionally, also learn a fighting technique that will help you get a two second head-start. But learning to run is the key.
    The key is to develop good awareness and social skills. Running is the option to take when those fail. I agree with the sentiment though, so

    Onto other random thoughts that might provoke thought....

    Multiple opponents are a real threat, and I only know of one school (in Australia) that tackles them sensibly. I know of a lot of schools, so that that's saying something. If you're thinking about how best to fight multiple opponents - you need to change your line of thinking. A much better line of thought is how to survive against multiple opponents. As soon as you start thinking about winning the ego tends to take over and gets you in trouble.

    The style isn't nearly as important as the teacher. There are frauds and inflated ranks everywhere. There are belt factories and poor standards everywhere. There are also good people just about everywhere if you look hard enough. They may not advertise or have large classes however.

    The weapons of today are not the weapons of yesterday. Neither are the tactics. Those who regularly use the weapons of today aren't using unarmed martial arts of yesterday. They sneak up behind you in greater numbers and don't give you a fighting chance. If they really want to hurt you.... they will.

    If you try to become just as nasty as the people who might do the above to you, you'll only succeed in getting their attention. This is the exact opposite of what you're looking for.

    There is of course more since this is a pet topic of mine, but my girlfriend is tapping on my window looking sad, so I think I'll add more tomorrow if the threads moved along at all.

    For what it's worth, this is the opinion of a Jujutsu instructor with slightly over a decade of practice under his belt. It's what I teach my students, and I think it's the only responsible angle I think anyone can take if they claim to teach self-defense. Martial arts are a much wider topic than just self defense in my opinion though.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...
    ego often grows faster than ability does ...
    One of them thar' universal truths ...

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    Re: Effective martial art?


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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    yea but use our skills as a last resort...

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanag View Post
    TKD defensive sport....

    Kickboking is not an attaking sport......
    If you find out the next time Bob Breen is in Birmingham, go along and ask him if Kickboxing is not attacking.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    If you find out the next time Bob Breen is in Birmingham, go along and ask him if Kickboxing is not attacking.
    Well I'm nowhere near Birmingham. The kickboxing I do is all about defend fist then attack. The same with the weapons we use, defend first with them, then attack. I wouldn't choose a martial art where you would attack first, cos frankly I'm rubbish at it, I defend myself to the earth then attack. Give me patterns any day over sparring!

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Without getting into a "my art is better than your art" farce; why Karate and any particular style?

    I'm having trouble with the concept of learning Shotokan Karate (arguably the most common) for defence in a street fight

    Shotokan Karate is taken from Shoto, Shoto is the school of Master Funakoshi's who beleived in respect to those you shall beat. He believed in the following 20 pionts. Although it is defensive it is the most attack minded form of Karate.

    1. In Karate, start with a bow and finish with a bow.
    2. There is no first attack in Karate
    3. Karate is a great assistance to justice.
    4. Know yourself first and then others.
    5. Spirit first: techniques second.
    6. Be ready to release your mind.
    7. Accidents come out of idleness.
    8.Do not think that you can learn Karate only in the Dojo.
    9.It will take your entire life to learn Karate.
    10. Karate-ize everything.
    11. Karate is just like hot water. If you do not give heat constantly, it will again become cold water.
    12. Do not think you have to win. Think, rather, that you do not have to lose.
    13. Victory depends on your ability to tell vulnerable points from invulnerable ones.
    14. Move according to your opponent.
    15. Consider your opponent's hands and legs as you would sharp swords.
    16. As soon as you leave home for work, think that millions of opponents are waiting for you.
    17. Low stance for beginners; natural stance for advanced students.
    18. Practicing a Kata is one thing and engaging in a real fight is another.
    19. Do not forget (1) light and heavy application of power, (2) expansion and contraction of the body, (3) slowness and speed of techniques.
    20. Devise at all times.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanag View Post
    Well I'm nowhere near Birmingham. The kickboxing I do is all about defend fist then attack. The same with the weapons we use, defend first with them, then attack. I wouldn't choose a martial art where you would attack first, cos frankly I'm rubbish at it, I defend myself to the earth then attack. Give me patterns any day over sparring!
    KickBoxing is taken from Thai boxing, Thai boxing is full on attack.

    I do agree, patern over attack. Thats why i think Kata within Shotokan is so important.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanag View Post
    he kickboxing I do is all about defend fist then attack. The same with the weapons we use, defend first with them, then attack.
    ..... its maybe a bit in line with Ghost's words about being aware of situation ... but if you HAVE to fight ... by all means let the opponent make the first aggressive move, but the quickest way to finish a fight is to land the first blow. Maybe not Queensbury rules, but street combat isn't meant to be fair.

    Some great points made ... I don't agree with all of them but we all carry with us the burden of our own convictions.

    Re 'my mate' .. well not surprisingly its not a single mate but a composite curiosity from questions raised by a number of mates and my own interest. Most of the people I know who did martial arts were more than a little street capable, a few are professional bodyguards and one was a combat trainer for the Police ... and that gives a very different perspective.

    My own curiosity was about what martial art was regarded about being effective. No real concern about putting it to use. Though I probably couldn't punch my way out of wet paper bag now I used to be ok ... but even then I was no illusion about the unacceptable risk of ending up face down in the dirt if I ever got caught up in a straight fight.

    I fundamentally agree with the idea of being situation aware and simply not being around where trouble is ... but sometimes you have to help people out .. .. it IS usually about letting someone expend their frustration and anger without coming to blows, but if people have confidence in their physical capability that confidence tends to allow them to be more ready to use other means to diffuse the situation.

    Oh ... and FWIW, I have heard and seen nothing to persuade me that Muay Thai is the best way to finish a fight if you don't mind causing damage but Aikido/Ju Jitsu are better if you don't like causing damage. Personal view only of course.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Most of the people I know who did martial arts were more than a little street capable, a few are professional bodyguards and one was a combat trainer for the Police ... and that gives a very different perspective.
    It certainly does give them a different perspective. Self defense isn’t something they’re worried about in a professional sense. They HAVE to do the stupid thing and get involved.

    One of my old teachers is a professional bodyguard and personal security specialist. His attitude is simple. Work in teams, and never do anything alone. He has something like thirty years experience with a very hard martial arts background, and he doesn’t consider it necessary to be a good security officer.

    My own curiosity was about what martial art was regarded about being effective. No real concern about putting it to use. Though I probably couldn't punch my way out of wet paper bag now I used to be ok ... but even then I was no illusion about the unacceptable risk of ending up face down in the dirt if I ever got caught up in a straight fight.
    Effective at doing what? Defending yourself against one unarmed lout in a pub with a chip on his shoulder is massively different from your drunk brother-in-law at a family barbeque, which is very different again from being assaulted while drunk yourself, in a dark alley by three knife wielding maniacs. There are different consequences to deal with, and it’s folly to think that there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of “effectiveness” in this light.


    I fundamentally agree with the idea of being situation aware and simply not being around where trouble is ... but sometimes you have to help people out .. .. it IS usually about letting someone expend their frustration and anger without coming to blows, but if people have confidence in their physical capability that confidence tends to allow them to be more ready to use other means to diffuse the situation.
    Agreed. Confidence isn’t necessarily tied to ability though

    Oh ... and FWIW, I have heard and seen nothing to persuade me that Muay Thai is the best way to finish a fight if you don't mind causing damage but Aikido/Ju Jitsu are better if you don't like causing damage. Personal view only of course.
    Again I agree with you here, but I’ve seen this line of reasoning so many times by kids living in a fantasy world I feel slightly ill every time I see it and feel the need to say so publically.

    There is some small degree of validity in it actually. An art like Muay Thai doesn’t have the tools to do much other than beat on the opposition. It provides very good tools to do so, but still….. It’s also not alone in that department, but is in fad today.

    As to Aikido/Jujutsu – physically defeating an opponent without hurting them is a superior skill and there are very few practitioners of such arts in the grand scheme of things who really do have the skills to do this with any reliability. Those that do tend not to be the lovey-dovey philosophical types who avoid causing injury at all costs. Many are outright sadists in fact.

    Philosophically speaking, I’d rather spend my energy on the Aikido/Jujutsu end of the spectrum. It doesn’t rely on me being a young man, and because it’s so much more difficult than being a weapon myself it guarantees that there’s always room for more progress as I get older. I’m not so worried about immediate effectiveness as I used to be.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    KickBoxing is taken from Thai boxing, Thai boxing is full on attack.

    I do agree, patern over attack. Thats why i think Kata within Shotokan is so important.
    Ah right, never knew that, might have missed that part of class. We can do Shotokan Kata's if we ask in the class and there is a sister karate club we can train at as well. I have also done Shotokan a few years back.

    Patterns are a good way to control your aggression in an effective way. It also provides you with a series of moves should you need to use them. Unfortunately there is always a bully in the class who can't control his aggression whilst sparring and takes it out on certain people. People like that shouldn't be allowed in the class IMO as they are there for different reasons to everyone else. We weren't allowed to refuse a spar with anybody and the bullies would pick on certain people knowing fine well they would hurt them. One reason why I left training I loved was I majorly worried I would get seriously hurt.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanag View Post
    ...Unfortunately there is always a bully in the class who can't control his aggression whilst sparring and takes it out on certain people. ...
    At one time my brother-in-law was a black belt in one school of Judo, and and working his way up from white belt (novice) in another. In those lower modes he would stroll into classes around London, and wait for the bullies ...

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    My own curiosity was about what martial art was regarded about being effective. No real concern about putting it to use.
    Ah well in that case. The different arts were created by different people in different cultures. Wing Chun was created by a Chinese nun. So it doesn't stress muscling techniques and being able to take blows. Sumo is generally practiced by rather large, but surprising agile and flexible guys. People die each year in Thai Boxing Tournaments. The Fillipino arts have been refined by constant use in battle and street fighting and stress weapon skills. Aikido was designed by a little guy who wanted something that would work better as he got older and would let him defend against young 'uns who were stronger and faster than him. And so on.

    It's interesting watching someone who doesn't fit the original mold learning an art - the discussions on SCD about tall people having difficulty in Salsa is a good analogy, though there are teachers who've adapted the techniques to suit western build, surroundings etc (when was the last time you saw a piece of feudal japanese farming equipment handily lying around, not to mention an actual sword?)

    Different teachers have taken different routes - some stressing the spiritual applications, some making money, some focussing on competitions etc.

    So it becomes a question of finding what suits you personally. Do you want to stay at range, get in close. Do you have a problem with maiming someone? (if you don't you have a much bigger problem ). How long are you willing to train before you can use the techniques effectively? A week, A year, 20 years, A lifetime? Who do you want to use them against? Why do you think 20 armed ninja are likely to attack you? (if they do, you use an ancient martial arts technique called "dying"). How much damage are you willing to take in training? Are you likely to use this in big open spaces, crowded rooms, or tight back alleys? And so on.

    But pretty much, eventually you'll run into people going "just use awareness". Hopefully sooner rather than later. As in most things in life, they're all effective and they're all rubbish. It depends who taught you and what you actually learned.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    At one time my brother-in-law was a black belt in one school of Judo, and and working his way up from white belt (novice) in another. In those lower modes he would stroll into classes around London, and wait for the bullies ...
    Sounds like fair do's to me. Bet they were happy to dish it out and not so happy to take it....

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanag View Post
    Well I'm nowhere near Birmingham. The kickboxing I do is all about defend fist then attack.
    But kickboxing is hardly known for its grappling is it - so it would make one of the best attacking martial arts, whether YOU would or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    It sounds to me like you're friend wants to learn how to fight, rather than learn self defense.
    What is self-defense then if it is not learning how to fight ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    but the quickest way to finish a fight is to land the first blow.
    I would say the last blow

    I fundamentally agree with the idea of being situation aware and simply not being around where trouble is ... but sometimes you have to help people out .. .. it IS usually about letting someone expend their frustration and anger without coming to blows, but if people have confidence in their physical capability that confidence tends to allow them to be more ready to use other means to diffuse the situation.
    its that "physical confidence" that makes a martial art worthwhile - anything else is just childish posturing.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Are there any specialist "arts" or training that can be used in restraining?

    I'm thinking specifically about places like prisons, psychiatric hospitals, (police I suppose)etc. where "professionals" have to restrain people as part of their 'day-to-day' job. I'm presuuming that they have some sort of training?

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Are there any specialist "arts" or training that can be used in restraining?

    I'm thinking specifically about places like prisons, psychiatric hospitals, (police I suppose)etc. where "professionals" have to restrain people as part of their 'day-to-day' job. I'm presuuming that they have some sort of training?
    My friend is in the polis and was told to promptly forget her TKD training as it would serve no purpose or help on the street. They are taught specific moves which will have somebody controlled & hands behind their back with no bodily harm, it's all about force in the right place. She showed me some of her new techniques and to say 'oowww' would be an understatement....

    I also have a friend who is a doorman for alot of the pubs in Edinburgh. He's tall and quite big, so to take him on you would have to be blindly drunk...as far as I know he hasn't used his TKD knowledge but they do go through specific courses for diffusing situations and sit an exam too, which they all have to do now to get their security ticket to get these jobs.
    Last edited by jeanie; 17th-December-2007 at 12:03 PM.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    I keep checking this thread and so want to get involved, but no time at the moment. I will quickly say this, and perhaps get involved a bit more at a later date.

    I am a full time professional martial arts teacher of many years. There is far too much confusion between ‘Martial Arts’ ‘Combative Sports’ Self Defence/combative techniques etc. Today there are far more combative sports & pseudo self defence teachers around than true martial artists.

    Sadly these days (as the blind lead the blind) they all come under the heading of Martial Arts.

    The words Martial & Art give away their own story. Martial originates from the word Mars (god of war etc). Art is and abbreviation for artificial; A living symbolic method of studying the fight of life (not the fight in the alleyway). One of my first Japanese teachers stated that a true dojo represents a microcosm of life were we learn to experience the ups and downs of life under the guidance of those who went before.

    It is a way of learning how not to fight…with yourself or others. As a bye product you do become physically and mentally better coordinated, confident etc. You will also develop skills that could help you in an altercation, but this was never the aim.

    Now, I know this does not sound helpful to a guy that has just been set on and wants to kick ass, but in the long term you need to treat the disease, not the symptom.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Are there any specialist "arts" or training that can be used in restraining?

    I'm thinking specifically about places like prisons, psychiatric hospitals, (police I suppose)etc. where "professionals" have to restrain people as part of their 'day-to-day' job. I'm presuuming that they have some sort of training?
    Aikido, jujutsu and tai chi spring to mind. ("Superior numbers" is also great)

    Though it's much more a case of "we've found this move and this move and this move tend to work well; you can learn them quickly and they're easy to do / remember when you're stressed. You need to tweak them slightly like this" rather than learning katas, gaining grades etc. A teenage girl gone completely wild in a psychiatric ward is a different kettle of fish to a drunk 40 year old, and is different to a prisoner who may or may not have a concealed makeshift weapon.

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