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Thread: Effective martial art?

  1. #81
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Aikido, jujutsu and tai chi spring to mind. ("Superior numbers" is also great)

    Though it's much more a case of "we've found this move and this move and this move tend to work well; you can learn them quickly and they're easy to do / remember when you're stressed. You need to tweak them slightly like this" rather than learning katas, gaining grades etc. A teenage girl gone completely wild in a psychiatric ward is a different kettle of fish to a drunk 40 year old, and is different to a prisoner who may or may not have a concealed makeshift weapon.
    In what way would restraining techniques be different?

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    In what way would restraining techniques be different?
    The drunk you need to be careful of his head. If he falls off balance can smack in to the ground with possibly lethal consequences.

    The girl you need to be careful she doesn't injure herself struggling against you, particularly joint locks.

    The prisoner you want to be careful about getting in close as that's the worst place to be if he does have a knife.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The drunk you need to be careful of his head. If he falls off balance can smack in to the ground with possibly lethal consequences.
    The child is more fragile; trauma to the head is more likley to have lethal consequences. The prisoner is more likley to sucessfully sue with visible head injury.

    The girl you need to be careful she doesn't injure herself struggling against you, particularly joint locks.
    The drunk is less likley to feel pain/discomfort and so more likley to injure themselves, particularly in joint locks. The prisoner is more likley to have some mental agility and sacrifice some pain to escape, particulary from joint locks.

    The prisoner you want to be careful about getting in close as that's the worst place to be if he does have a knife.
    The drunk is more likley to take wild swings with anything at hand and be far more unpredictable. The child is more likley to use every limb, teeth, head, spitting, ...

    As Stuart said - why should the technique be different? The objective is the same; restrain with minimal damage to the person and mimimum risk to yourself.

  4. #84
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The drunk you need to be careful of his head. If he falls off balance can smack in to the ground with possibly lethal consequences.

    The girl you need to be careful she doesn't injure herself struggling against you, particularly joint locks.

    The prisoner you want to be careful about getting in close as that's the worst place to be if he does have a knife.
    I think this is a fair summary

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    As Stuart said - why should the technique be different? The objective is the same; restrain with minimal damage to the person and mimimum risk to yourself.
    How best to "restrain with minimal damage to the person and mimimum risk to yourself" changes from situation to situation.

    One on person you might concentrate on putting the technique on slowly, giving verbal directions and using pain compliance. With another it might be more important to get it on fast but half-assed knowing it's "good enough". One size fits all doesn't work with restraining techniques. Every single time you have to modify it to fit that individual situation.

    Obviously there's overlap. You do want to protect everyone's head etc. But the specific focus and importances change and that affects how you do the technqiues and which techniques you choose.

    For the sake of example
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The child is more fragile; trauma to the head is more likley to have lethal consequences. The prisoner is more likley to sucessfully sue with visible head injury.
    With the drunk the danger is in him falling over and not trying to stop himself. That's different from the other two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The drunk is less likley to feel pain/discomfort and so more likley to injure themselves, particularly in joint locks.
    It's different having someone thrashing around hysterically in a joint lock to a 40 year old who's just struggling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The prisoner is more likley to have some mental agility and sacrifice some pain to escape, particulary from joint locks.
    They're also the most likely of the three to follow verbal directions from pain compliance techniques. The drunk won't accept he's beaten and it'll make matters worse for the girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The drunk is more likley to take wild swings with anything at hand and be far more unpredictable.
    Unpredictable compared with comp fighting maybe, but plenty predictable in that they're probably going to use their hands, it's probably going to be wild and you can probably write a haiku while its coming.... (just keep them away from stuff they can pick up)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The child is more likley to use every limb, teeth, head, spitting, ...
    Which is a b***** nightmare against most restraining techniques if you don't want to hurt them.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The child is more fragile; trauma to the head is more likley to have lethal consequences. The prisoner is more likley to sucessfully sue with visible head injury.

    The drunk is less likley to feel pain/discomfort and so more likley to injure themselves, particularly in joint locks. The prisoner is more likley to have some mental agility and sacrifice some pain to escape, particulary from joint locks.

    The drunk is more likley to take wild swings with anything at hand and be far more unpredictable. The child is more likley to use every limb, teeth, head, spitting, ...

    As Stuart said - why should the technique be different? The objective is the same; restrain with minimal damage to the person and mimimum risk to yourself.
    No locks work on a crazed adrenaline rushed fighter who is up for it.

    Several times…I have witnessed as many as 8 police/doorman etc trying desperately to retain/control one full individual. For all restraint training they failed miserably and resorted to more violent tactics or simply bundling they guy and sitting on him.

    This is why such techniques are not used in MMA (mixed martial arts) events. Locks take the form of full body application. Usually on the floor using both legs, both arms and torso leverage to attack one joint.

    Having taught joint locks to the police I can assure you they only work on semi compliant individuals who don’t really want to push it too far. For police, security, doorman etc. It is a numbers game. If an individual kicks off, you out number him. These are tactical luxuries not afforded the individual trying to tackle someone attacking them. I am not saying it is impossible, but you need to be extremely skilful.

    Back in the 90s, we did a great deal of research on martial arts techniques. This involved many high ranking (4th Dan and above) martial artists of varied disciplines. I can record that they all fell down under simple scrutiny behind closed doors. Some individuals were/are more street savvy and gutsy, but they could not use the art they were teaching.

    I paid big money to train in the George Dillman method of pressure point strikes that either incapacitate or render unconscious a willing dojo attacker. Dillman had made big money teaching police, security and military personnel mainly in the US. Having reached a good standard in these methods I thought it time to really put them under the spotlight. At a university class, I applied various disabling techniques to 12 volunteers with varying degrees of success. In a passive state it would seen that some are more susceptible to such techniques than others. One of my very susceptible assistants was standing next to me. Without warning, I slapped him hard around the face and immediately tried to apply one of these techniques that had always worked on him. The shock of the slap had cause an adrenaline rush that made the techniques useless. We repeated this experiment many times on unsuspecting individuals to prove it was not a one off. Sounds cruel, but it had to be done.

    Moral: be very cautious of anyone who says they can teach you to look after yourself in the street.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    No locks work on a crazed adrenaline rushed fighter who is up for it.
    Pain compliance certainly won't, but if they are genuinely immobilized then it doesn't matter much if they're crazed or not. Admittedly, getting them there in the first place is another story entirely....

    Several times…I have witnessed as many as 8 police/doorman etc trying desperately to retain/control one full individual. For all restraint training they failed miserably and resorted to more violent tactics or simply bundling they guy and sitting on him.
    To be perfectly fair, the police in New Zealand have quite minimal training in restraint techniques, and I've never heard of bouncers undergoing long-term and serious training in the field either.

    Greater numbers and weight are generally a much more reasonable tactic than requiring all your security staff to be restraining specialists. It’s also safer for the security personnel, so it's no surprise that this is usually what happens. I wouldn’t want to do their job without a lot of backup.

    This is why such techniques are not used in MMA (mixed martial arts) events. Locks take the form of full body application. Usually on the floor using both legs, both arms and torso leverage to attack one joint.
    I hate the "if it isn't used in MMA competition" argument with a passion. There are a lot of things you can get away with in MMA tournaments that are not necessarily a good idea in a genuine no-rules engagement. If memory serves most competitions disallow knees to the head of a downed opponent for instance, so when caught in a side-mount position competitors don’t have to worry about defending against this potentially fight-ending blow. Similarly, finger holds are disallowed due to the danger of breaking fingers yet these can be useful in aiding escape.

    I’m not trying to downplay the lessons that have been taken from MMA competitions here - just pointing out that they are also not the whole picture, and I have seen far too many people who think they are for my liking. I certainly agree that groundwork style grappling is the easiest way to immobilize and control an opponent. That doesn’t mean it’s always the most appropriate though.

    Having taught joint locks to the police I can assure you they only work on semi compliant individuals who don’t really want to push it too far. For police, security, doorman etc. It is a numbers game. If an individual kicks off, you out number him. These are tactical luxuries not afforded the individual trying to tackle someone attacking them. I am not saying it is impossible, but you need to be extremely skilful.
    Given that the majority of offenders police are likely to be using these techniques on are semi-compliant and don’t want to push it too far this doesn’t seem to be much of an issue to me. You do what you need to do to control a situation. If that means making a show of your restraining skills to assert your authority then great. If the offender is too aggressive then it means calling in backup. The danger is not knowing which is the best time for the right approach.

    Back in the 90s, we did a great deal of research on martial arts techniques. This involved many high ranking (4th Dan and above) martial artists of varied disciplines. I can record that they all fell down under simple scrutiny behind closed doors. Some individuals were/are more street savvy and gutsy, but they could not use the art they were teaching.
    I don’t place much value on their ability to apply the “art” they claim expertise in. Training is just preparing your body to react appropriately to a situation. It doesn’t matter if your right hook is or isn’t text-book perfect according to your art under pressure, you’ll always have to modify it to the situation you’re in at the time for it to be effective at that time. This tends to make genuinely good people look sloppy compared to the image most of us have of martial arts experts.

    I paid big money to train in the George Dillman method of pressure point strikes that either incapacitate or render unconscious a willing dojo attacker. Dillman had made big money teaching police, security and military personnel mainly in the US. Having reached a good standard in these methods I thought it time to really put them under the spotlight. At a university class, I applied various disabling techniques to 12 volunteers with varying degrees of success. In a passive state it would seen that some are more susceptible to such techniques than others. One of my very susceptible assistants was standing next to me. Without warning, I slapped him hard around the face and immediately tried to apply one of these techniques that had always worked on him. The shock of the slap had cause an adrenaline rush that made the techniques useless. We repeated this experiment many times on unsuspecting individuals to prove it was not a one off. Sounds cruel, but it had to be done.
    I have no direct experience with pressure point’s, but I do remember a simple phrase said by a respected NZ teacher who had studied them for some time at a recent seminar. He said
    Quote Originally Posted by Random Martial Arts Teacher on the other side of the planet :wink:
    Applied properly, pressure point techniques can be expected to work about 80% of the time, on 80% of the people. Those aren’t great odds to bet your life on
    Moral: be very cautious of anyone who says they can teach you to look after yourself in the street.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 18th-December-2007 at 09:53 PM.

  8. #88
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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    No locks work on a crazed adrenaline rushed fighter who is up for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    if they are genuinely immobilized then it doesn't matter much if they're crazed or not. Admittedly, getting them there in the first place is another story entirely....
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    simply bundling the guy and sitting on him.
    Then apply locks .

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    No locks work on a crazed adrenaline rushed fighter who is up for it.

    Several times…I have witnessed as many as 8 police/doorman etc trying desperately to retain/control one full individual.
    Slioghtly off-topic as it doesn't involve martial arts as such, but I used to teach in special unit for children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. As part of the job we were required to have training in how to restrain children to prevent them harming themselves or others when they got violent. Despite the training, I can clearly remember one incident where it took 3 experienced, trained adults (2 of whom were fit rugby players to boot) to restrain one small 8-year-old boy who was in such a rage that adrenalin and anger took him where his physique could not.

    Never underestimate the effects of adrenaline and rage on a person. If it took 3 of us to restrain an 8-year-old, how much harder would it be with an adult?

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Never underestimate the effects of adrenaline and rage on a person. If it took 3 of us to restrain an 8-year-old, how much harder would it be with an adult?
    Presumably though you worried about hurting them, which makes a significant difference in restraining someone. But yes, if you have to avoid doing serious harm, then it can be huge problem with grown-ups if you don't have half a dozen guys backing you up.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Do you have a problem with maiming someone? (if you don't you have a much bigger problem ).
    Surely that depends on context. In general I would have a huge problem with maiming someone, but if that someone was trying to hurt my wife or someone else close to me I'd have no qualms about doing damage to them. And that's from someone with no martial arts training, unless you count boxing.

    Now, marital arts on the other hand, I quite enjoy...

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    but if that someone was trying to hurt my wife or someone else close to me I'd have no qualms about doing damage to them.
    But how would you feel afterwards? A lot of veterans accept that what they did in war was both right and necessary, but are still sickened that they had to do it for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Now, marital arts on the other hand, I quite enjoy...
    The number of times I've nearly turned up to those classes

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    But how would you feel afterwards? A lot of veterans accept that what they did in war was both right and necessary, but are still sickened that they had to do it for example.
    If I was ever in such a situation (and I sincerely hope I never will be), I think I'd be totally devastated afterwards if I killed or caused permanent damage to someone. However, I'd still think it was worth it if the end result was that my wife or whoever was protected from a violent attack.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    If I was ever in such a situation (and I sincerely hope I never will be), I think I'd be totally devastated afterwards if I killed or caused permanent damage to someone. However, I'd still think it was worth it if the end result was that my wife or whoever was protected from a violent attack.
    Sure - my concern is for those who aren't. It's a bad place to be as a human being. To be at the point where maiming someone is the same as slapping them; I've met people like that - they have an annoying habbit of objecting strongly to my continued existence.

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    We weren't allowed to refuse a spar with anybody and the bullies would pick on certain people knowing fine well they would hurt them. One reason why I left training I loved was I majorly worried I would get seriously hurt.
    That's a real shame jeanie...go get your black belt! Join a different federation. ITF is working for me!

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    I think more effective is to be confident and not give off victim vibes.

    My son wanted to learn martial arts... I was happy to encorage him to do so. I then asked him why he wanted to do it...

    He said he wanted to be confident he could deal with violent situations (he had been bullied a lot in school and been beaten up a few times when out on the town)

    In the end we worked on his confidence levels and discussed situations to avoid.

    He is now no longer a "victim" and has had no further problems... nothing to do with ability to fight... simply awareness and projecting confidence + leaving his ego at home...

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Just my opinions here. I am still interested in martial arts although I don't train anymore.

    For me martial arts can be very effective for street fighting. That's why karate men like Terry O Neil (Shotokan) who are in their late fifties and sixties still do the doors. I am sure I saw Terry O Neil on the doors the other night. He would still knock the stuffings out of almost any body no matter how big or strong. That's why he gets the jobs.

    Also Geoff Thompson (kung fu) who is now a writer. He never lost a fight on the doors in Coventry and was only about 140 - 150 lbs. Then there's the guy mentioned above who killed someone in a street fight. I understnad it was road rage, he was challenged, knocked him out and his head hit the floor. That was "Animal" Alfie Lewis (Lau Gar).

    I guess the difference is that these guys were all highly trained international level fighters.It did n't matter what style they did. They were fast, strong, hard and two were Scousers.

    Then there's Dennis Martin the famous body guard. Karateman I think. He was doing the door at Birkenhead and stopped two local boxers getting into the club. In fact he knocked both of them out. Joey Singleton and John Conteh.I think this is a true story.

    Then there is my mate Steve (Lau Gar) who i used to spar with. (He was good. Like me at the time totally obsessed by martial arts although only a lower grade). Coming out of a Manchester night club, he was set upon by a couple of Mancs. He kicked one in the nuts and round house punched the other and then ran off.

    So martial arts does work if you are dedicated and/or naturally "hard". Merseyside is full of hard men who talk like wimps most of the time (like a bus driver I knew who trained with Alfie Lewis for years. Acted like a wimp but he was well hard.) Almost all of my friends (then and now) did martial arts. Aikido, Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Lau Gar, Wing Chun, Thai Boxing, boxing.

    If Gus's friend is big and/or strong and well coordinated and does a lot of training, martial arts might work for him.If he is physically weak, then he is at a disadvantage and would have to work his butt off (with a lot of risks).

    I don't think that just doing martial arts in itself gives you an advantage over anyone. They may just be too skilled/ too big or too fit for you. You can only narrow down the angles. But you will be better than someone of your own size and strength who hasn't trained. And the harder you train and the more you train in such a way that replicates street fights with all the differences in light, distance, terrain, atmosphere, objects (glasses.stools etc) the more you can narrow down the angles even further. THere is no easy way and you have to become "hard". Maybe even hardening your hands with sand bags.Otherwise you' ll just end up sport karatemen. THere is no quck fix or correct "style". True oriental masters didn't just train three times a week. THey lived a certain lifestyle and that's why they were good and could do street fighting (My Great Uncle was a kung fu master....hung out with gangsters. Operated a gambling den. Was chased by 2 truck loads of men and somehow avoided getting beaten up.)

    FOr me one very efficacious style is jiu jitsu. Grappling, with great locks for short distance, kicks and punches for long distance. May be Brazilian (Gracie brothers) style jiu jitsu is the top style. If I was 20 years younger and did martial arts again, I think that's what I would go for with boxing or wing chun. I would also run a lot, do a lot of disco danicing and a lot of hand hardening exercises. And spar a lot with other stylists. But because I am not mentally "hard" and would never go on that journey to being trully hard, these things would be mainly for personal amusement and a bit of self defence. It's just not plausible for me to compete with a hardened street fighter. I am too small and weak (despite Bob Poynton double grading me and saying I was "strong"!). Like my mate said to me (actually he never saw me train) "Steve, you' ll never be Bruce Lee. But you can be a great guitar player". After all, I am from Aigburth, not Everton!

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    Re: Effective martial art?

    Just my opinions here. I am still interested in martial arts although I don't train anymore.

    For me martial arts can be very effective for street fighting. That's why karate men like Terry O Neil (Shotokan) who are in their late fifties and sixties still do the doors. I am sure I saw Terry O Neil on the doors the other night. He would still knock the stuffings out of almost any body no matter how big or strong. That's why he gets the jobs.

    Also Geoff Thompson (kung fu) who is now a writer. He never lost a fight on the doors in Coventry and was only about 140 - 150 lbs. Then there's the guy mentioned above who killed someone in a street fight. I understnad it was road rage, he was challenged, knocked him out and his head hit the floor. That was "Animal" Alfie Lewis (Lau Gar). World Champion.

    I guess the difference is that these guys were all highly trained international level fighters.It did n't matter what style they did. They were fast, strong, hard and two were Scousers.

    Then there's Dennis Martin the famous body guard. Karateman I think. He was doing the door at Birkenhead and stopped two local boxers getting into the club. In fact he knocked both of them out. Joey Singleton and John Conteh.I think this is a true story.

    Then there is my mate Steve (Lau Gar) who i used to spar with. (He was good. Like me at the time totally obsessed by martial arts although only a lower grade). Coming out of a Manchester night club, he was set upon by a couple of Mancs. He kicked one in the nuts and round house punched the other and then ran off.

    So martial arts does work if you are dedicated and/or naturally "hard". Merseyside is full of hard men who talk like wimps most of the time (like a bus driver I knew who trained with Alfie Lewis for years. Acted like a wimp but he was well hard.) Almost all of my friends (then and now) did martial arts. Aikido, Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Lau Gar, Wing Chun, Thai Boxing, boxing.

    If Gus's friend is big and/or strong and well coordinated and does a lot of training, martial arts might work for him.If he is physically weak and small (like me), then he is at a disadvantage and would have to work his butt off (with a lot of risks). Do weights.

    I don't think that just doing martial arts in itself gives you an advantage over a street fighter. They may just be too skilled/ too big or too fit for you. You can only narrow down the angles. But you will be better than someone of your own size and strength who hasn't trained. And the harder you train and the more you train in such a way that replicates street fights with all the differences in light, distance, terrain, atmosphere, objects (glasses.stools etc) the more you can narrow down the angles even further. THere is no easy way and you have to become "hard". Change your mentality. Turn into someone you don't like. Maybe even hardening your hands with sand bags.Otherwise you' ll just end up mediocre hobbyist karatemen. Maybe there is no quck fix or correct "style". True oriental masters didn't just train three times a week. THey lived a certain lifestyle and that's why they were good and could do street fighting (My Great Uncle was a kung fu master....hung out with gangsters. Operated a gambling den. Was chased by 2 truck loads of men and somehow avoided getting beaten up.)

    For me one very efficacious style is jiu jitsu. Grappling, with great locks for short distance, kicks and punches for long distance. May be Brazilian (Gracie brothers) style jiu jitsu is the top style. If I was 20 years younger and did martial arts again, I think that's what I would go for with boxing or wing chun. I would also run a lot, do a lot of disco dancing and a lot of hand hardening exercises. Maybe hit myself to and get others to hit me. And spar a lot with other stylists. But because I am not mentally "hard" and would never go on that journey to being trully hard, these things would be mainly for personal amusement and a bit of self defence. It's just not plausible for me to compete with a hardened street fighter. I am too small and weak (despite Bob Poynton double grading me and saying I was "strong"!). Like my mate said to me (actually he never saw me train) "Steve, you' ll never be Bruce Lee. But you can be a great guitar player". After all, I am from Aigburth, not Everton!

    Is your mate Scouse?

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