View Poll Results: Should teachers continue to be restricted to the top category in MJ competitions?

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26. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm a teacher and I think they should be restricted.

    1 3.85%
  • I'm a teacher and I think they should NOT be restricted.

    7 26.92%
  • I'm not a teacher and I think they should be restricted.

    1 3.85%
  • I'm not a teacher and I think they should NOT be restricted.

    9 34.62%
  • I'm not bothered either way.

    3 11.54%
  • All competitions are evil.

    4 15.38%
  • I can't make my mind up.

    1 3.85%
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Thread: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You can only get so far with moves, you need to be able to dance too

  2. #42
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    You've lost me here.

    "The teacher knows a considerable number of moves which look good enough to keep people coming back to learn more. They can demonstrate them so that they are always the facing the correct way for maximum effect. They are aware of the style elements that can be added. They have experience of people watching them intently while they do the moves. They have experience of it going wrong."
    Aren't they doing this every week when they teach?


    Various teachers going "you can style this out this way"


    Fair enough. Are these things not taught to them as part of their teacher training / a requirement to being teachers in the first place?


    Nah, can you imagine people's reaction to entering an Intermediate Comp with all them in it?


    Yup, I'm thinking of people who if I named them, most people on the Forum would go "who?"


    Maybe I'm missing something My point is not that all teachers are all magically somehow at Advanced level for doing Comps. My point is that if a teacher is interested in doing comps and puts in the same amount of practice as non-teacher who's is genuinely just an intermediate dancer, I'd be surprised if they were at the same level. Sure you'll have a few exceptions to the rule, but by and large, surely the teacher's got an advantage all else being equal?
    Seemed pretty straightforward to me. You've listed a load of things that you say teachers have that will give them an advantage in a comp. I disagree with most of what you said. Having seen lots of teachers, and having been to lots of comps...

    No. A lot of teachers aren't doing that. And a teacher saying 'you can style it out this way' means nothing either. Sure, you can style it out that way. That way may also look, to be blunt, crap. Anyone can say that you can style it out anyway, doesn't mean diddly squat really. One particular teacher I've seen at some point in the last 8 years, teaches a styling point that makes me cringe everytime I see it. Let's see that teacher enter intermediates to try to win!

    Teacher training usually involves a week (if they're lucky, and most independents or teachers for any organisation other than Ceroc) of learning how to deliver the beginner moves from a stage to a standard level. There is no training given on how to improve ones own dance style as part of teacher training.

    And yes, a teacher may have an advantage in that they are a better dancer. Or they may have been asked to teach because they are nice, friendly people who explain things well! Are you going to penalise all the 'better' dancers in this way (of course, it would be nice if there was a grading system in place, but that's just pie-in-the-sky). As I've said before, I know plenty of teachers that would struggle to make an intermediate final at a national comp - I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head. So, they have the choice, of going into the Open (and possibly feeling like they're making fools of themselves, as well as paying money to do 1 heat, with no chance of getting through), or not going in at all. Which do you suppose that most/all actually do? How about being fair to them too?

  3. #43
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Seemed pretty straightforward to me. You've listed a load of things that you say teachers have that will give them an advantage in a comp. I disagree with most of what you said. Having seen lots of teachers, and having been to lots of comps...
    Ah ok that makes sense. Clearly I have too high an opinion of teachers. Suddenly things make much more sense.



    In that case I completely see the point about letting anyone enter anything. Shift the focus instead onto policing the categories so that people are entering the appropriate ones for their level


  4. #44
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something My point is not that all teachers are all magically somehow at Advanced level for doing Comps. My point is that if a teacher is interested in doing comps and puts in the same amount of practice as non-teacher who's is genuinely just an intermediate dancer, I'd be surprised if they were at the same level. Sure you'll have a few exceptions to the rule, but by and large, surely the teacher's got an advantage all else being equal?
    You're probably right. But it comes down to that word you've emboldened there and that things are rarely equal.

    Someone who is "genuinely just an intermediate dancer" will probably not do well in an intermediate competition. Depends of course what you mean by "genuinely just an intermediate dancer" though.

    Either way, a better-than-intermediate dancer may still only be only an average intermediate competitor. So even if the teacher is better than 90% of their typical intermediate class, it doesn't necessarily mean that are going to do well in an intermediate competition.

    The teacher is starting from a slightly better position, but it still doesn't mean they'll get to the finish first.

    In the category outlines I suggested, I put a limit of 3 years on the Newcomers category and 5 years on the intermediate category. (Thinking about this, I'd probably extend it to 6 years.) It's usually the additional experience that will make a teacher better than a intermediate dancer of a year or so – not because they are a teacher – and will push them into a higher category than the "genuine intermediate dancer".

    So the fresh new intermediate dancer can enter the Newcomer category, and the scary teachers are much more likely be in a higher category, better matched to their talents.

    (Maybe there'd be a case to ban teachers from my Newcomer category, but it's entirely possible that you could find teachers who would belong at this level – especially if they are not teaching regularly.)

    This reminds me of another point. I'm not an expert in any particular area of dance, but say I was a bit of a whizz at drops, and had been asked to help teach a local workshop in it (and had been paid for it.) That would immediately make me a teacher, and hence-fore would need to compete in Open competitions only – just because I'd taught one class. Doesn't seem right. Does it?


    Oh, I should point out that I no wish to teach dance to anybody, so I'm not arguing this from the point of view as a future teacher.
    Last edited by ducasi; 10th-December-2007 at 07:36 PM. Reason: typos
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #45
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In the category outlines I suggested, I put a limit of 3 years on the Newcomers category and 5 years on the intermediate category. (Thinking about this, I'd probably extend it to 6 years.)
    I think that would be a mistake. The length of time someone has been dancing doesn't necessarily correspond to how good a dancer they are. Some learn faster than others, after all.

  6. #46
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I think that would be a mistake. The length of time someone has been dancing doesn't necessarily correspond to how good a dancer they are. Some learn faster than others, after all.
    I agree, but short of a point system, it's hard to quantify how good someone is. The reason I though 6 years would be fairer would be that in the career of a dancer, perhaps they'd get round to doing the Newcomer category only in their third year of dancing. They then have 3 years (effectively 3 chances in an annual competition) to make a mark in the Intermediate category before being "promoted" to the Advanced category which they may or may not be ready for.

    Basically using "time served" as a measure of "how good" is going to hit difficulties one way or another.

    One big flaw in my proposed system is that someone who has been dancing socially for years and years wouldn't be allowed to "try their hand" at a lower level of competition no matter how good or bad they actually are.

    Can anybody think of a better way?

    Is there an easy, fair and respectable way to grade people for competitions?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #47
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is there an easy, fair and respectable way to grade people for competitions?
    No.

    I'd agree with Baruch that length of time isn't a good indication, although, I'd also agree with you that it might be the best option available. Someone dancing 4 nights a week in London would (hopefully) be at a rather different level to someone dancing 2 times a month in a quieter outpost of MJ, even if on paper they'd both been dancing for 4 years.

    I think that the only way is really the current system, where it's down to the individual to try to assess themselves where they think that they fit in to the system. Of course, there will be, and are, plenty of people who enter at a level lower than which they would honestly consider themselves to be at, but that's life really.

  8. #48
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is there an easy, fair and respectable way to grade people for competitions?
    In theory you could require people entering at the lower levels to have their application signed by someone reputable as designated by the Comp Organisers. How practical this would actually be however, I have no idea.

  9. #49
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Hmm, so far there's a total of 15 against the restriction and only 1 in favour. Sounds like a consensus to me.

  10. #50
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Another thought: if the restriction was lifted, would more competitors perhaps be tempted to teach? That could be a good thing in some cases, perhaps.

  11. #51
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is there an easy, fair and respectable way to grade people for competitions?
    Hell, no. You can have easy, or you can have fair / respectable - you can't have both.

    In fact, we have "easy" now - simply based on whether you're a teacher or not. "Time served" is also easy.

    A fair and respectable system would be based on a global integrated points system, as done in other sports and (I think) in dancesport. The minimum pre-requisite for this would be a global inclusive MJ organisation to define the system.

    A halfway house would be some kind of pre-assessment system - e.g. a questionnaire / interview of each competitor - to assess their level.

    Can't see either of those happening, however.

  12. #52
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Actually I do object for asking for a small cola and being given a huge drink at Cinemas.
    whats that got to do with anything ?

    So you're saying teachers can't necessarly dance?
    No.

    Because they are picking up the skills I mentioned
    Are they ? And if they are they will always help in competitions

  13. #53
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    The post I made that sparked this thread was specifically about the over 50s category. And it is based entirely on my personal experience and from a personal perspective. I'm currently 51 (but have, obviously, kept my looks, men just look better and better the older they get ), I was already 40 when I started MJ. I've entered categories where there was no age restriction and done OK. I've made it to quite a few finals and been placed in some of them.

    As I'm a teacher and because of my previous successes I now find myself in the position where I would have to compete at the highest level. This is a level where big lifts are permitted and where you would need to do those lifts to be on the same playing field as the other competitors.

    Why don't I enter and do those lifts? They're just too hard and I'm more likely to get injured, either in the competition, or, more likely, during practice. Like all people over 50 I'm not as strong or as agile as I was and take much longer to recover from injuries. Having a category for over 50s acknowledges this.

    I think the arguments that dance teachers are not necessarily great dancers are well made and I will not repeat them. I think there is a very big difference between a dance teacher and a professional dance performer. But I think that there has been a confusion between the two in writing the rules. This was started way back in the mists of MJ competition history and has been perpetuated ever since - I'm as guilty of this as anybody as I made up the original categories for Britrock.

    It is difficult to break with tradition. However, if I'd thought about it more I might have chosen to exclude professional dance performers from certain categories rather than teachers. Professional performers are in a different class altogether IMHO, "normal" dancers should not have to compete with them. My suggestion is that the entry criteria are changed to reflect this difference rather than use the fact that you teach as a reason to exlude people from a particular category.

  14. #54
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As I'm a teacher and because of my previous successes I now find myself in the position where I would have to compete at the highest level. This is a level where big lifts are permitted and where you would need to do those lifts to be on the same playing field as the other competitors.
    This is going to go way off topic, but I note Tom and Vikki managed to win the Ceroc Open without doing a single lift (big or small). From what I've seen, the people putting in big lifts may think it helps their chances, but in practice it seems to hinder them. [Single glaring exception of David and Lily, of course].

  15. #55
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    This is going to go way off topic, but I note Tom and Vikki managed to win the Ceroc Open without doing a single lift (big or small).
    Similarly, Adam Nathanson (cerocmetro) won in the Advanced DWAS in Australia a couple of years back, without any lifts.

  16. #56
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    From what I've seen, the people putting in big lifts may think it helps their chances, but in practice it seems to hinder them. [Single glaring exception of David and Lily, of course].
    I think that the exception is the couple who won with no lifts. I've observed that most open or advanced category winners put in the maximum number of lifts.

  17. #57
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that the exception is the couple who won with no lifts. I've observed that most open or advanced category winners put in the maximum number of lifts.
    Yes, but that's because almost everyone in the open category puts in the maximum number of lifts - it's therefore unsurprising that this also tends to be true of the winners. It's also worth noticing that most of the lifts aren't exactly "big" lifts - that is, they're moves that any couple in reasonable shape and proportion should be able to do.

    Now obviously some couples do put in more ambitious lifts. But does it help them? From the footage I've watched, I don't think so. And the comments I've heard from judges also imply most people would do better without lifts - certainly without big lifts. If memory serves, David and Anita didn't do any big lifts in the Ceroc Open, even though they won the Airsteps category.

  18. #58
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    I've only just skimmed through this thread and as yet, I haven't reached a final conclusion but my initial 'random' thoughts are as follows....

    I agree, many good teachers aren't necessarily great dancers/performers and therefore, it'd be unfair for them to be forced to compete against people who're clearly better and never stand a chance of getting placed

    but then again...

    It would seem strange, for a punter, who's in his first comp, to be competing in the same round as his teacher, I think it would feel unfair and might turn new people off of entering all together

    but then again,

    I agree with Andy Mcg, that as one gets older, some elements of dance, no matter how good you are/have been, will inevitably deteriorate to the extent, that its unfair to have to compete in a category, that has now been taken over by younger more agile people.

    but then again..

    I fear you'd get people who'd abuse the system and enter at a lower level, to win a prize... could one be disqualified for being 'too good'? how would this be regulated?

    but then again..

    I personally and I'm sure the majority people I know as well, would have no respect for anyone who did this, so I suppose, hopefully it might be 'self regulating?

    but then again..

    I also wonder if competitors would get shot down for appearing to have an over inflated opinion of themselves, if they entered a level, 'higher' than their ability?

    Yes, competitions are evil!
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  19. #59
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I agree with Andy Mcg, that as one gets older, some elements of dance, no matter how good you are/have been, will inevitably deteriorate to the extent, that its unfair to have to compete in a category, that has now been taken over by younger more agile people.
    And Lory is nowhere near as old as I am

    I'm really only talking about the over 50s/45s category when I say that the "no teachers" restriction should be lifted. That doesn't meat I agree or disagree about the other categories, it means that I'm not debating them. So that I can separate out the Seniors from the rest I'd prefer it if we debated here.

  20. #60
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    Re: Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    whats that got to do with anything ?
    The term "small" drink is misleading if you haven't bought a drink there before. I feel that "Intermediate Competition" is misleading in this case unless you've been to one before

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Are they ?
    Apparently not

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    And if they are they will always help in competitions
    Nah, I suspect you'd need to be dancing with a hot girl in a revealing outfit for a consistent advantage

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