Should teachers be allowed to enter more categories at comps?

[Baruch]

Actually that's gelled something that's been bothering me

Are there any local Ceroc Competitions?

I don't know about Ceroc, but other MJ organisations run local competitions. Three that I'm familiar with are the South West and Wales Challenge, Best in the West and Planet LeRoc Dances with Strangers.

[Ghost]

I don't know about Ceroc, but other MJ organisations run local competitions. Three that I'm familiar with are the South West and Wales Challenge, Best in the West and Planet LeRoc Dances with Strangers.

Interesting
The South West and Wales Intermediate Comp is described as
"Open to everyone else, apart from regular teachers, this level is aimed at encouraging new competitors to take part and for those who are less experienced. Have a go."

Best in the West
"All dance couples are eligible, teachers and non teachers alike." but I couldn't see if they had seperate categories

And DWAS is a wild card normally

I'm fairly sure I have a point, but it eludes me at the moment. Thanks for the links though

[FirstMove]

I think everyone should be able to compete in anything. The best dancers ought to win, even if they have become teachers.

I'd organise (say) 10 local heats, with the first placed couples going into a national gold competition, the 3 runners up from each going into a national silver competition. Anyone could apply for the national bronze.

Couples could keep competing through the year until they secure entry at the level they'd like to be at.

Other sports I'm involved tend to award points based on results at qualifying competitions, to be clocked up over time. Once you're in the top 16, you get to have a crack at the national title if you want. The clock only resets when you actually enter, so die-hard competitors eventually get a chance, even if they never quite make the top few. This could be adapted to cope with beginners/intermediate/advanced/showcase I'm sure.

[ducasi]

I just wrote a long reply to this thread, but unfortunately can't post it for technical reasons I don't want to bore you with.

The first point I wanted to make though, was that the original discussion centred around the "Senior" category at the Blackpool competition, which is not open to teachers, and isn't split into open and non-open categories.

The second point though feeds back into this Intermediate vs Advanced discussion. The reason why these categories are not "open" is to protect the newcomer to competition from having to compete against people way better than them. This is what the Intermediate category is supposed to do, but in reality, it's those unfortunate enough to have won an Intermediate competition that seem to make up the bulk of the Advanced category (when there is a separate Open category – otherwise, it's the unfortunates versus the professionals.) Too many people who should compete at Advanced level compete at Intermediate level (IMHO.)

Until the competition organisers are prepared to create clear, fair categories which protect the newcomers, and challenges the truly advanced, and enforce the rules to ensure that people are in the categories they belong to, things will continue the way they are.

I don't know the best way to do this – a point system is one solution, though maybe a bit too ambitious for the limited competition circuit in the UK.

I think that promoting people to higher categories on the day if they are out of place may be an easier solution, though it would likely lead to too much controversy.

Simply keeping the teachers out of the lowest levels of the competition isn't a solution to the problem, in unfair to teachers and to other competitors who would like to compete against them fairly.


My ideal competition would probably have 4 levels...

1. Newcomer – open only to people where this is their first year competing, but not open to people who have been dancing more than maybe 3 years.
2. Intermediate – open to those who have not been placed at this level and have not been dancing for more than 5 years.
3. Advanced – open to those who have not been placed more than once at this level.
4. Masters – open to those who have been placed at the Advanced level.

The criteria I've given there are just off the top of my head, and probably need more emphasis on ability rather than years, but ability is so hard to put in terms of a number.

Other categories, like Showcase, and Lucky Dip, should either be open to all, or separated into Higher and Lower levels, corresponding to the higher two and lower two levels of the main competition.

How does that sound?

[Ghost]

[*] Intermediate – open to those who have not been placed at this level and have not been dancing for more than 5 years.
How does that sound?

As a ballpark, what percent of teachers have been dancing Ceroc less than 5 years?

Would you run into the same "Teachers have to start at Advanced" even if you could word it around skill, which I agree would be a pain - the umpteen threads on "what the heck is an advanced dancer?" show that.

[Jamie]

As a ballpark, what percent of teachers have been dancing Ceroc less than 5 years?

Quite a few that I know of... I've been dancing around a year and a half...

[ducasi]

As a ballpark, what percent of teachers have been dancing Ceroc less than 5 years?

Would you run into the same "Teachers have to start at Advanced" even if you could word it around skill, which I agree would be a pain - the umpteen threads on "what the heck is an advanced dancer?" show that.

Jammy, Jamie and Danielle come to mind immediately. They all probably belong at the "Advanced" level I describe, but in the current Ceroc categories they would have to compete in the Open level. (Jammy & Danielle placed in the Scottish Intermediate competition a couple of years back. Jamie is an exceptional talent, and my off-the-top-of-my-head rules need to be adjusted to allow for such exceptions.)

I know a MJ teacher who's been dancing about 3 years who I'd put at "intermediate" competition level. I'd not mind competing against her at all (though I know she is uninterested in competing – maybe partly because she would have to do it at too high a level.)

[Ghost]

I know a MJ teacher who's been dancing about 3 years who I'd put at "intermediate" competition level. I'd not mind competing against her at all (though I know she is uninterested in competing – maybe partly because she would have to do it at too high a level.)

Ah that's a better question. What percentage of MJ teachers would be fairly considered as Intermediate level who are actually interested in competing / compete?

[Baruch]

Best in the West
"All dance couples are eligible, teachers and non teachers alike." but I couldn't see if they had seperate categories

Currently they don't, which IMO is a bit unfair - people like me (competent intermediate) have had to compete in the same competition as advanced couples. It's still a great experience though.

THE SW & Wales Challenge is different. They made that into a 2-tier comp this year, which worked well and gave some newbies the confidence to have a go.

[Baruch]

Ah that's a better question. What percentage of MJ teachers would be fairly considered as Intermediate level who are actually interested in competing / compete?

Or how many would be interested if they were actually allowed to compete at that level in the first place?

[Martin]

If only 3 catogories, many teachers are intermediate.... If 5 catogories, many teachers would be upper intermediate or advanced. A few would be Masters, but not many.

A lot of teachers have students who are better than them in comps... This is the way it is, and also not a bad thing,,, teacher "help" students to suppass them.


I teach, but I know many people who are far better than me at comps, who I teach, they respect my teaching and my knowlwdge, I respect their level of comp ability.

For example, I used to help out Amy (as in Peter and Amy) ... I would say Peter and Amy are far far better at comps than me now,,, and all power to them... they have learnt from many teachers. I would not be at the same level as them in a comp, even though I have been dancing for longer.

[Dreadful Scathe]

My own general opinion is that you're on dangerous ground if you're being paid to teach someone at the same level as you unless you're very clear about it from the outset. So if a teacher feels they are at intermediate standard should they only be teaching beginner classes?

as others have said - intermediate dancing and the intermediate competition category are two entirely separate things - they share a name and nothing else. Just as someone who doesn't/can't teach can own in a comp and win easily, a great teacher can fall apart in any competitive situation.

[Achaeco]

Therein lies my whole point. I wouldn't enter a child's poetry competition because I'm above that level, but I wouldn't enter the National either because I'm below that level. If I entered poetry comps at all (which I don't), I'd go for something in between the two extremes, at the level I felt I fitted into. I wouldn't enter a children's comp just so I could win, but neither would I want to enter (and fail miserably) at the top level just because I happen to teach the language the poems are written in. I can teach the language well enough, but creating good poetry using that language, especially with the strict rules of Welsh poetry, is a skill that is currently not within my grasp.

The same applies to dance. Good teachers teach proficiency in "the language the poems are written in", i.e. dance basics. The top dancers then take those basic building blocks and make "poetry" or a good dance, which is much greater than the sum of its individual parts.

But what about those who would enter just to win.

[Ghost]

as others have said - intermediate dancing and the intermediate competition category are two entirely separate things - they share a name and nothing else. Just as someone who doesn't/can't teach can own in a comp and win easily, a great teacher can fall apart in any competitive situation.

Well the first obvious solution is to change the names then.

However looking at this from an "even ground" viewpoint.

The teacher knows a considerable number of moves which look good enough to keep people coming back to learn more. They can demonstrate them so that they are always the facing the correct way for maximum effect. They are aware of the style elements that can be added. They have experience of people watching them intently while they do the moves. They have experience of it going wrong.

Surely these skills are useful in comps, let alone things lke musicality, connection etc which aren't normally taught to intermediates?

Again I do stress, I'm talking about an Intermediate Comp as
"Open to everyone else, apart from regular teachers, this level is aimed at encouraging new competitors to take part and for those who are less experienced. Have a go." and ""danced for 6 months or more but do not feel that they have reached Advanced level"

But yes, it does raise the somewhat confusing question of whether or not "advanced level" refers to a person's comps or dancing ability?

[TheTramp]

But what about those who would enter just to win.

I imagine that all the people who would enter the intermediate 'just to win' aren't teachers. As already commented, I can't see many teachers entering the intermediate, now that you finally have 3 levels of competition. When you had 2 levels, I could see some teachers entering intermediates, and not actually standing much chance of winning it. Now, you might get some teachers entering advanced. Which, IMHO, would be good.

Have you any plans for stopping all the non-teachers that might do that then?

[TheTramp]

The teacher knows a considerable number of moves which look good enough to keep people coming back to learn more. They can demonstrate them so that they are always the facing the correct way for maximum effect. They are aware of the style elements that can be added. They have experience of people watching them intently while they do the moves. They have experience of it going wrong.

Ah. And what makes you think that teachers know any of this either? People who only know moves don't generally do that well at comps. And in a class, everyone who does the class is demonstrating in exactly the same way as the teachers. What makes you think that a lot of teachers are aware of the style elements? About the only useful experience I can see out of your list, is that of 'being on stage', so are used to being watched.

Surely these skills are useful in comps, let alone things lke musicality, connection etc which aren't normally taught to intermediates?

Or to teachers??? I'm not being mean to anyone in particular, but how many teachers do you know that have great musicality and connection etc. naturally. Teachers don't just have these things as an innate ability, any more than anyone else in their class. They might do, but then, if you want to try to categorise people into 'those that have it' against 'those that don't', you're already on a loser. In fact, since a lot of teachers only ever see themselves teach (after all, if you're teaching a couple of times a week, that's probably enough dancing for most people), so you could say that they have a distinct disadvantage over people who can travel around their area, and go to different classes, and get the benefit of seeing lots of different teachers and styles.

Also, I don't quite know who you are thinking of in terms of teachers. I don't know where you go to classes, but I'm guessing you're thinking of teachers like Amir, Nigel, maybe Simon or Mark etc.? I'm thinking of teachers such as Joe Bloggs who teaches a class in a random part of the country, and who doesn't have quite the same level of ability.

But yes, it does raise the somewhat confusing question of whether or not "advanced level" refers to a person's comps or dancing ability?

Competitive dancing is not the same as social dancing. It's a rather different skill set - for those that do well at it. Okie, if you're a good social dancer, you'll probably do better in competitions than a bad social dancer. But couples that practice and put in the work to improve their competition dancing generally do better than maybe better social dancers who don't do as much work.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Well the first obvious solution is to change the names then.

now you're just being silly . If I was to go into a coffee shop and ask for a medium cappuccino and a medium panini, could I complain that they must change the word "medium" because one is an item of food and one is a drink ?

The teacher knows a considerable number of moves which look good enough to keep people coming back to learn more. They can demonstrate them so that they are always the facing the correct way for maximum effect. They are aware of the style elements that can be added. They have experience of people watching them intently while they do the moves. They have experience of it going wrong.

You can only get so far with moves, you need to be able to dance too As Trampy said , the skills needed to teach for competition improvement are not the same and not universal. Certainly for the vast majority of classes I've ever been to there has never been any specific competition pointers, because thats not what the teachers are there for. The emphasis in a normal class has never been "to impress others" or competition dancing it has to be.

[Ghost]

Ah. And what makes you think that teachers know any of this either?

You've lost me here.

"The teacher knows a considerable number of moves which look good enough to keep people coming back to learn more. They can demonstrate them so that they are always the facing the correct way for maximum effect. They are aware of the style elements that can be added. They have experience of people watching them intently while they do the moves. They have experience of it going wrong."
Aren't they doing this every week when they teach?

What makes you think that a lot of teachers are aware of the style elements?

Various teachers going "you can style this out this way"

Teachers don't just have these things as an innate ability, any more than anyone else in their class.

Fair enough. Are these things not taught to them as part of their teacher training / a requirement to being teachers in the first place?

Also, I don't quite know who you are thinking of in terms of teachers. I don't know where you go to classes, but I'm guessing you're thinking of teachers like Amir, Nigel, maybe Simon or Mark etc.?

Nah, can you imagine people's reaction to entering an Intermediate Comp with all them in it?

I'm thinking of teachers such as Joe Bloggs who teaches a class in a random part of the country, and who doesn't have quite the same level of ability.

Yup, I'm thinking of people who if I named them, most people on the Forum would go "who?"

Competitive dancing is not the same as social dancing. It's a rather different skill set - for those that do well at it. Okie, if you're a good social dancer, you'll probably do better in competitions than a bad social dancer. But couples that practice and put in the work to improve their competition dancing generally do better than maybe better social dancers who don't do as much work.

Maybe I'm missing something My point is not that all teachers are all magically somehow at Advanced level for doing Comps. My point is that if a teacher is interested in doing comps and puts in the same amount of practice as non-teacher who's is genuinely just an intermediate dancer, I'd be surprised if they were at the same level. Sure you'll have a few exceptions to the rule, but by and large, surely the teacher's got an advantage all else being equal?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Maybe I'm missing something My point is not that all teachers are all magically somehow at Advanced level for doing Comps. My point is that if a teacher is interested in doing comps and puts in the same amount of practice as non-teacher who's is genuinely just an intermediate dancer, I'd be surprised if they were at the same level. Sure you'll have a few exceptions to the rule, but by and large, surely the teacher's got an advantage all else being equal?

No. If all else is equal, I don't see how "they can get up on stage and show people how to dance" can make them necessarily better in a competition

[Ghost]

now you're just being silly . If I was to go into a coffee shop and ask for a medium cappuccino and a medium panini, could I complain that they must change the word "medium" because one is an item of food and one is a drink ?

Actually I do object for asking for a small cola and being given a huge drink at Cinemas.

You can only get so far with moves, you need to be able to dance too

So you're saying teachers can't necessarly dance?

No. If all else is equal, I don't see how "they can get up on stage and show people how to dance" can make them necessarily better in a competition

Because they are picking up the skills I mentioned