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Thread: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

  1. #41
    Registered User knightengale's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    One thing that might be worth signing up for is the Pipeline site. I did it a few years back and they ahve been trying to get a sort of discount card with a major supplier for years now. Nothing has come of it yet. but might be something worth looking at at least

    the site is :- Welcome to Pipeline Card!

  2. #42
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    You can't socially-engineer large-scale change by simply increasing taxation - look at the lack of effect taxes have had on consumption of alcohol.
    This is off the subject of "fuel prices" so if a moderator wants to make a new topic out of it, fair enough.

    I think most people would agree that the problem of alcohol abuse in this country is growing, at the same time as the real price of alcohol is decreasing. There are lots of studies suggesting that if the cost of alcohol is increased then consumption goes down, and I don't think most problem drinkers distinguish between the "price" and "tax" elements of the money they are handing over.

  3. #43
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I think we should be making reasonable efforts to keep the acceleration of global warming to a minimum.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    So what do you think should be done about climate change?

    Or do you think that climate change doesn't exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I think it exists. I think it's largely caused by human actions. And I think it's a problem - although I also think it's an opportunity. More summer holidays in the UK, for example

    But I don't think the answer is to try to roll back the clock to the 19th century, or to try to force people into modes of behaviour they don't like. That never works, and it's also too authoritarian an approach for me.

    of course climate change is real its just that its not all man made we are coming out of an ice age volcanoes also create major earth temperature changes

    the main man made change is due to the deforestation of the rain forests the rest is all hokum just made up so the governments can tax you more and the media have more to write about

    Michael Crichton wrote a novel called state of fear which describes global catastrophes being created by the ecological charities just to raise money in his books he puts by notes which you can look up yourself on the web etc. to see the scientific background to his theories which almost completely disprove the governments and the media's theories on global climate change

    as i said in one of my earlier posts i remember in the late 70s early 80s that the governments were going on about global cooling funny how 20 to 30 years go by and they change their tune

  4. #44
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    The fundamental problem about humanity is that there are too many of us - everything stems from that.

    Please form an orderly queue for your rations of Soylent Green

  5. #45
    Registered User RedFox's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i remember in the late 70s early 80s that the governments were going on about global cooling funny how 20 to 30 years go by and they change their tune
    I remember there were a couple of books and that there were stories in the media, but I don't recall scientists considering that it was an urgent concern, nor that the government took much interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    the main man made change is due to the deforestation of the rain forests
    It certainly needs to be stopped, especially when it's felled to grow crops to produce biofuels! Indonesia is now the World's 3rd largest emitter of greenhouse gasses largely because of this. However, world-wide, in 2000 'land use and biomass burning' only accounted for 10% of greenhouse gas emissions (Image:Greenhouse Gas by Sector.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

  6. #46
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post

    It certainly needs to be stopped, especially when it's felled to grow crops to produce biofuels! Indonesia is now the World's 3rd largest emitter of greenhouse gasses largely because of this. However, world-wide, in 2000 'land use and biomass burning' only accounted for 10% of greenhouse gas emissions (Image:Greenhouse Gas by Sector.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    except that i wasnt talking about the burning of the trees i was talking about the removal of large swathes of forest and plant life from the earth

  7. #47
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Michael Crichton wrote a novel called state of fear which describes global catastrophes being created by the ecological charities just to raise money in his books he puts by notes which you can look up yourself on the web etc. to see the scientific background to his theories which almost completely disprove the governments and the media's theories on global climate change
    You might be interested in the New Scientist website here and here. This has a lot of info (and research to back it up) that demonstrates the opposite. It also dismisses (with reasons) the myths about volcanos and the predictions about cooling in the 1970s.

    Oh, and we're all burning carbon by using this forum too.
    Last edited by DavidY; 4th-December-2007 at 11:51 PM.
    Love dance, will travel

  8. #48
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    You might be interested in the New Scientist website here and here. This has a lot of info (and research to back it up) that demonstrates the opposite. It also dismisses (with reasons) the myths about volcanos and the predictions about cooling in the 1970s.

    Oh, and we're all burning carbon by using this forum too.
    perhaps we should have a rota system for who uses the forum when?
    I've just bought a truck, which is for my diving. So I take my buddies with me and we save on fuel etc, if diesel keeps going up I won't be able to afford to go diving!
    I do like to walk places but people insist on giving lifts... public transport is too expensive IMO. I do use it though when I can

  9. #49
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    I used to live in Surrey and the place was full of big 4x4s. Not really necessary for tackling the tricky pothole in Waitrose car park or mounting the kirb outside the cash point Of all the people I knew with them, only one person actually used it off road, as she had horses. Everyone else used it to transport one small child to and from ballet lessons half a mile from their house. The attitude of most people who have 4x4s as a fashion statement beggers belief, and the cost of fuel is of no concern to them - one woman I spoke to told me that her household outgoings were £120,000 a year not including her mortgage so taxing fuel wouldn't even register with her.

    BTW I have no gripe with people who actually have a need for larger vehicles, like Jeanag and my horsey friend, who use it wisely - just the Chelsea Tractor brigade...

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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    I used to live in Surrey and the place was full of big 4x4s. Not really necessary for tackling the tricky pothole in Waitrose car park or mounting the kirb outside the cash point Of all the people I knew with them, only one person actually used it off road, as she had horses. Everyone else used it to transport one small child to and from ballet lessons half a mile from their house. The attitude of most people who have 4x4s as a fashion statement beggers belief, and the cost of fuel is of no concern to them - one woman I spoke to told me that her household outgoings were £120,000 a year not including her mortgage so taxing fuel wouldn't even register with her.

    BTW I have no gripe with people who actually have a need for larger vehicles, like Jeanag and my horsey friend, who use it wisely - just the Chelsea Tractor brigade...
    I also plan to sleep in it on nights out after a few too many drinks

  11. #51
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueshoes View Post
    I take your point, however I don't usually drink 6 gallons of mineral water or orange juice every week. Or wine. Actually, if you bought cheap wine in France at 1 Euro a bottle it would work out cheaper than petrol.
    Well, petrol's cheaper in France too!

  12. #52
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    {snip sceptical stuff about climate change}
    I too used to be a global warming deny-er, but I changed my mind. Generally, when there is such an enormous scientific consensus as there is, it's time to stop cavilling (O look! There's one guy in an American mid-West university who says the oceans aren't getting warmer - and look! - another guy in a Korean university who says that the ice-caps aren't shrinking...) and start paying attention.

    But Bjorn Lomborg points out that the fundamental problem isn't whether there is global warming, but the fact that if the scienfitic consensus is correct, then attempting to reverse the current situation is - on current technology - is going to cost $trillions and have a trivial effect. I'll look up the URL when I can but you can find his short talk on TED.com. IIRC he suggests that if the Kyoto protocols are implemented in full it will cost the countries of the earth $30 trillion and will have the effect of delaying until 2100 the level of warming we can otherwise expect to experience about 2090.

    Woo. Big deal.

    So, he says, let's spend the money on other things whilst simultaneously making sensible, non-deleterious efforts to slow down the rate of global warming. That way we reduce human suffering to a far greater extent than hitting the Panic Button on CO2.

    His calculations, by the way and IIRC, are just on expenditure, and do not take into account the humungous slowdown in global economic expansion required to implement Kyoto, which will depress even further the wealth of nations and the welfare of individuals.

  13. #53
    Registered User RedFox's Avatar
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    Re: Fuel prices - Can we do something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ...Bjorn Lomborg points out that the fundamental problem isn't whether there is global warming, but the fact that if the scienfitic consensus is correct, then attempting to reverse the current situation is - on current technology - is going to cost $trillions and have a trivial effect.... ...he suggests that if the Kyoto protocols are implemented in full it will cost the countries of the earth $30 trillion and will have the effect of delaying until 2100 the level of warming we can otherwise expect to experience about 2090.

    Woo. Big deal.

    So, he says, let's spend the money on other things whilst simultaneously making sensible, non-deleterious efforts to slow down the rate of global warming.
    ...However Martin Weitzman disagrees, because most economic analyses of climate change (such as Lomborg's) don't included the cost of extreme weather events. When these are factored in the economics change in favour of taking action now. More info at Climate Progress » Blog Archive » Harvard economist disses most climate cost-benefit analyses

    Although $30 trillion is not exactly small change, Stern calculated that the benefit of stabilising greenhouse gas concentrations would save around $2.5 trillion each year.

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