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Thread: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

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    Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    so, whats the big deal about doing continuous lifts and drops???
    At just about every venue or event I have been too, you always seem too get a few couples who do as many lifts and drops for the whole dance routine for every track that is played. to the fact that they can do these moves but to me its not dancing when done every other move.
    IMHO lifts and drops are over hyped and I would much rather watch someone doing good well executed moves along with intricate step patterns , but each to their own I suppose.
    So, whilst I will do lifts/drops with my regular dance partner (lucille) , we will only do a maximum of say 2 over a 3 minute track.
    I understand for competition that dancers would most probably do more but for just general freestyle social dancing , I was wondering what other people views were on what would be considered the norm.
    Last edited by jemessex; 30th-November-2007 at 03:07 PM.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Hopefully this thread won't descend into another fight about the pros and cons of doing aerials on a social dance floor, and instead be centred on the merits of aerials and drops as part of dancing.

    FWIW, I'm with you. Unless you're in a competition, I see no need for huge numbers of drops and aerials. I understand though that *some* ladies like them a lot, and some guys like to show off...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    FWIW, I'm with you. Unless you're in a competition, I see no need for huge numbers of drops and aerials. I understand though that *some* ladies like them a lot, and some guys like to show off...
    As much as it pains me...I agree with Ducasi.

    There is a couple who dance in North London (Cheshunt in particular) who do nothing and I mean NOTHING but lifts and drops...oh...they shuffle in between lifts and drops for ten seconds before the next one.

    Apart from being the most annoying people of the planet...their floor craft is non-existent and it annoys me that they think it's ok to monopolise a quarter of the dance floor to themselves as no one will go near them, in case they get a kick/elbow in the head.

    GRRRrrrrrrrr.....!

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    Cool Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    I think you'll find that dancing is defined as moving with/to music. Technically there's nothing to say that three and a half minutes of lifts is not dancing. But personally it seems like over kill to me.

    An aerial or lift put into a dance at the right moment, under the right circumstances, can be very enjoyable for both dancers - for many reasons. As a dancer who has been known to do lifts and aerials I would say that it would be difficult as a lead to pull that many air steps in a row and be totally aware of your surroundings, and therefore the safety of others (and yourself). But I am a new dancer and I am only viewing that aspect with my limited experience of dancing and using these exhilarating moves.

    Back to the thrust of your question, a continuous lift unless it is part of a cabaret or competition for an entire track seems like overkill.

    Stokie

    Contrary to his request for this thread not to degenerate into argument, it seems that Ducasi is unable to turn a phrase without loading his words to attempt to cause this thread to turn into a squabble. I am sure his reckless choice of loaded words were a mere lapse in concentration, and he didn't mean to sound like he was trolling for a fight to watch. If you are joining this discussion, I implore you to ignore Ducasi's little 'accidental' trolling and stick to the substance of the question that was asked.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Contrary to his request for this thread not to degenerate into argument, it seems that Ducasi is unable to turn a phrase without loading his words to attempt to cause this thread to turn into a squabble. I am sure his reckless choice of loaded words were a mere lapse in concentration, and he didn't mean to sound like he was trolling for a fight to watch. If you are joining this discussion, I implore you to ignore Ducasi's little 'accidental' trolling and stick to the substance of the question that was asked.
    Trolling was certainly not my intention. Apologies if it came across that way.

    In the past we've had loads of discussion about "aerials on a social dance floor". I think we're all sick of that one. We haven't had as much discussion on "use of aerials as an expression of dance", which I think would make an interesting thread.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Yes, it can be called dancing - look at the free dance exhibition from last year's SCD, for example, that was pretty much continuous aerials.

    But I wouldn't call it partner-dancing, as there's very little lead-and-follow involved. And that's not just my opinion, that's based on what DavidB said about the lack of follow in aerials (or drops, past the commit stage).

    To me, lead-and-follow is essential to partner dancing. No lead-and-follow = no partner dance.

    As to "Why do people like it?", it's because it looks flash. Same reason people like complex moves, lots of whirling, spinning, hijacking, and all those other gimmicks. It's usually the bloody-intermediates who like these, as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    IMHO lifts and drops are over hyped and I would much rather watch someone doing good well executed moves along with intricate step patterns
    I'd go further - I'd rather watch someone doing good well executed moves full stop.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    I'll just note that even if you look at an actual airsteps competition, each couple generally spends well under a quarter of the time in the air.

    So "continuous lifts and drops" seems a bit of an overstatement.

    My own take is that it's still dancing (at least if done well), but it's a very different kind of dancing from "normal partner dancing".

    I'm not sure you can really avoid the "social dance floor" discussion. Because if you're going to do an aerial on a social dance floor, probably 90% of your attention has to be on floorcraft, and maybe 9% on the aerial. Leaving precious little for anything else. And as far as musicality goes, it has to take 2nd place to safety - so your timing is determined as much by what the couples around you are doing as anything else.

    If you didn't have to worry about other couples, it would be much easier to actually use aerials expressively.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yes, it can be called dancing - look at the free dance exhibition from last year's SCD, for example, that was pretty much continuous aerials.
    Also worth noting that Hanna used to be the world #1 Latin dancer; I'm certainly not going to argue with her if she wants to call it dancing.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Also worth noting that Hanna used to be the world #1 Latin dancer; I'm certainly not going to argue with her if she wants to call it dancing.
    The video is here:


    3 minute performance, I reckon at least 60% of it is aerials.

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The video is here:


    3 minute performance, I reckon at least 60% of it is aerials.
    agreed....well nearly .

    I am not so much worried about the major aerial stuff though as most venues have it banned anyway...but I was more looking into the concept of minor lifts, drops, seducers etc being used continously by couples all the time and to just about every track played


    just to be finicky - 45% actually... 10 moves using 91 seconds in a 200 second track
    Last edited by jemessex; 30th-November-2007 at 04:45 PM.

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    Cool Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The video is here:


    3 minute performance, I reckon at least 60% of it is aerials.
    In the air to an AC/DC medley.... does it get any sweeter than that?!

    Absolutely awesome DJ thanks for the link - best DANCE routine that I have ever seen!!

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    I think David Franklin (sincere appologies if it was someone else or if I've mis-remembered this ) said that David and Lily B did a routine that actually was continuous lifts?

    I'd say the wirework in Hidden Tiger Crouching Dragon is a beautiful form of dance.

    So "yes" to the specific question.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I think David Franklin (sincere appologies if it was someone else or if I've mis-remembered this ) said that David and Lily B did a routine that actually was continuous lifts?
    Doubt it was me - I'm not aware of any routine they've done that was genuinely nothing but continuous lifts. Although in the routine they did for our wedding, I think Lily was on the ground for about 30 seconds total. With changes, that became the first half of the routine they did for the Australian Ceroc Champs, and the meat of that half was basically a continuous lift that was getting on for 2 minutes (the entire routine was well over 4 minutes though).

    There's a frequent comment made that when David and Lily did the Open at the Hammersmith Champs, they did only aerials and next to no dancing. I wasn't there and haven't seen the DVD, but to be honest I suspect it's an exaggeration. If you do a lot of aerials, people tend to massively underestimate the amount of time spent dancing.

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Doubt it was me - I'm not aware of any routine they've done that was genuinely nothing but continuous lifts.
    Yeah I was thinking of this thread
    MJDA forum

    Basically they did continuous lifts, quite a lot of them and very well, rather than "one continuous lift".

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    There's a frequent comment made that when David and Lily did the Open at the Hammersmith Champs, they did only aerials and next to no dancing. I wasn't there and haven't seen the DVD, but to be honest I suspect it's an exaggeration.
    Mmmm. I was there, and my memory of it is pretty much of solid lifts with a few steps in between... but memories tend to be unreliable - especially after that many years. I think we have the video somewhere around - not sure where though, but at the end of the day, it was a great routine, and left the whole audience spellbound - which is (IMOFO) what mattered most.

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post

    I am not so much worried about the major aerial stuff though as most venues have it banned anyway...but I was more looking into the concept of minor lifts, drops, seducers etc being used continously by couples all the time and to just about every track played

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Hopefully this thread won't descend into another fight about the pros and cons of doing aerials on a social dance floor, and instead be centred on the merits of aerials and drops as part of dancing.

    .

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    so, whats the big deal about doing continuous lifts and drops???
    At just about every venue or event I have been too, you always seem too get a few couples who do as many lifts and drops for the whole dance routine for every track that is played. to the fact that they can do these moves but to me its not dancing when done every other move.
    IMHO lifts and drops are over hyped and I would much rather watch someone doing good well executed moves along with intricate step patterns , but each to their own I suppose.
    So, whilst I will do lifts/drops with my regular dance partner (lucille) , we will only do a maximum of say 2 over a 3 minute track.
    I understand for competition that dancers would most probably do more but for just general freestyle social dancing , I was wondering what other people views were on what would be considered the norm.
    Having come from a ballet and competitive ballroom background, I've only ever understood using lifts or drops to emphasise a point within the music. I'm not really into watching constant lifts in a dance segment as it starts to look more like a gymnastic routine than a dance routine (unless I know that the whole dance section is "cabaret" where the routines are usually lifts & drops).
    The thing I notice is that there isn't much "light & shade" in the choreography when most of the movement about lifts and drops - after a while it all starts to look the same (no matter how wonderfully executed the movements are done).
    The part I find sad is that there are those who prefer lifts to dancing - and usually at the expense of their dance technique. It's one thing to have lifts in a routine, but they do look so much nicer when the dancers move smoothly and gracefully between the lifts, rather than looking as though they're lifting sacks of potatoes.
    I think it takes a lot more creativity to keep an audience focused (including judges) and not use lifts. Kudos to those who get by with a higher % of dance component to their dancing than lifts/drops/aerials etc.

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The video is here:


    3 minute performance, I reckon at least 60% of it is aerials.
    I reckon it is about 80 % Dance.

    I do not like some of the lifts over the head visually as dance.

    It seems odd to me that dancers that spend their lives getting line and form right for visual effect should throw "showing-off" at people doing lifts.

    Dance can be done for others, or for just the dancers themselves. There are dancers who get a thrill out of this or that, and they could not give a jot about what it looks like to anybody else. Much of the time I am "alone" with my partner on the floor. If my partner gets a thrill from being lifted, turned upside down, or whirled around, I am pleased to be a part of that. Sometimes I know I could spin more artistically and impressively on one foot, but instead shuffle around on two. I am dancing for my partners safety and pleasure rather than for any watchers. I like dance sometimes as art, fun, and sometimes just for an adrenalin trip.

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I reckon it is about 80 % Dance.

    I do not like some of the lifts over the head visually as dance.

    It seems odd to me that dancers that spend their lives getting line and form right for visual effect should throw "showing-off" at people doing lifts.

    Dance can be done for others, or for just the dancers themselves. There are dancers who get a thrill out of this or that, and they could not give a jot about what it looks like to anybody else. Much of the time I am "alone" with my partner on the floor. If my partner gets a thrill from being lifted, turned upside down, or whirled around, I am pleased to be a part of that. Sometimes I know I could spin more artistically and impressively on one foot, but instead shuffle around on two. I am dancing for my partners safety and pleasure rather than for any watchers. I like dance sometimes as art, fun, and sometimes just for an adrenalin trip.

    Great thread,
    As a general rule I feel that to much of lifts and drops is a bad thing...however recent Ceroc Australia Comps showed the exception to the rule, second place couple in caberet, absolutely wow routine, definitely all dancing, High energy heaps of lifts and drops, had all of the audience mesmerised, took everything out of the music, Audience looking for more, then blown away by another fantastic caberet.
    As far as social dancing go's as a rule of thumb..one or two leans/drops in any song is my limit..(when I first started...another story)

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    Re: Can doing continuous lifts and drops be called dancing??

    Quote Originally Posted by ~*~Saligal~*~ View Post
    I'm not really into watching constant lifts in a dance segment as it starts to look more like a gymnastic routine than a dance routine


    I did not enjoy watching the SCD clip at all, for that reason.

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