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Thread: Blasphemy

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    Blasphemy

    On looking at articles surrounding the Teddygate tragedy, I began thinking along the lines of this maxim:

    "It is impossible for a society to call itself civilised, for as long as it has blasphemy laws".

    Now a blasphemy law is a blunt restriction on open debate, and you can't be civilised without open debate. No? Can anyone out there provide a justification for a blasphemy law?

    Subnote: it seems I live in one of the few places in the developed world where it is still technically illegal to show Life of Brian in a cinema. I'm going to contact the local arthouse cinema now, to get them to organise a showing as a publicity stunt. In a double bill with "The Passion of St Tibula".

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Subnote: it seems I live in one of the few places in the developed world where it is still technically illegal to show Life of Brian in a cinema. I'm going to contact the local arthouse cinema now, to get them to organise a showing as a publicity stunt. In a double bill with "The Passion of St Tibula".
    Count me as interested to see "The Passion of St Tibulus" - I've never seen it, but if Father Jack likes it, it must be a watchable film!!

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Blasphemy laws are a 'special instance' of 'special pleading'.

    If you want to prevent children from being adopted by gay couples, given that it will almost certainly be better for the child than being in care, and will bring satisfaction and happiness to the couple, then it stands to reason that you must give your reasons.

    But believers (some) simply say "It's against my religion and so I must do what I can to stop it."

    The "It's against my religion..." part is a discussion stopper. Or at least it is intended to be. It should really be translated as "actually, I can't defend my faith because it's indefensible; it's just what I have chosen to believe: since it's indefensible, it's rude of you to attack it."

    Blasphemy means "Not only is it rude of you to attack my religion, but because it is the majority religion in this country, I'll arrange for you to be punished for attacking my indefensible religion."

    For those among you who are aching to click the 'Quote' button and explain how I'm wrong, just one more assertion.

    You can tell religions are indefensible, and this is how. It's a two stage demonstration: first, ask the following question. "Does the religion in question either seek to, or have the effect of, reducing people's freedom to follow their own conscience?" I know of no religion for which you can answer No. Thus the religion must be defended, since it reduces freedom.

    Second, since all non-adherents will challenge the basis of that religion (sacred texts, almost universally), then the religion is indefensible, because the adherents are reduced to saying merely 'well, it's what I believe'.

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    OSubnote: it seems I live in one of the few places in the developed world where it is still technically illegal to show Life of Brian in a cinema.


    On an unrelated note, I really enjoyed my stay in Glasgow when I worked there last year.

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    On looking at articles surrounding the Teddygate tragedy, I began thinking along the lines of this maxim:

    "It is impossible for a society to call itself civilised, for as long as it has blasphemy laws".

    Now a blasphemy law is a blunt restriction on open debate, and you can't be civilised without open debate. No? Can anyone out there provide a justification for a blasphemy law?

    Subnote: it seems I live in one of the few places in the developed world where it is still technically illegal to show Life of Brian in a cinema. I'm going to contact the local arthouse cinema now, to get them to organise a showing as a publicity stunt. In a double bill with "The Passion of St Tibula".
    This Vaizey guy - he thinks banning Harry Potter films is a tactic to get people to take the council more seriously?!!

    People say politicians are out of touch, but this guy is through the looking glass.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blasphemy

    There's a new religion I keep hearing about called "Science". Some people think it is a cult.

    They try to limit people's beliefs using an arcane system called "Scientific Method".

    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".

    I can't say any more in case they get me for blaspheming!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".
    So you oppose blasphemy laws too, then?

    Thing is, blasphemy law generally only protects one religion or family of religions, as much from other religions as non-religion. The Islamic view of Christ as a Prophet, but not the Messiah, for example. It's pretty much blasphemous, from certain Christian perspectives.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    So you oppose blasphemy laws too, then?

    Thing is, blasphemy law generally only protects one religion or family of religions, as much from other religions as non-religion. The Islamic view of Christ as a Prophet, but not the Messiah, for example. It's pretty much blasphemous, from certain Christian perspectives.
    I'm against all laws which reduce freedom of speech. (Excluding willful mischief.)

    I quite like the idea of the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill which protects all religions from unreasonable attack. I'm just not sure about how it will work in practice.
    Last edited by ducasi; 30th-November-2007 at 03:54 PM.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    There's a new religion I keep hearing about called "Science". Some people think it is a cult.

    They try to limit people's beliefs using an arcane system called "Scientific Method".

    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".

    I can't say any more in case they get me for blaspheming!
    I'm thinking that Ben Elton is a genius - he's managed yet again to catch the topic of the moment perfectly.

    From the blurb for "Blind Faith":
    Imagine a world where everyone knows everything about everybody. Where what a person 'feels' and 'truly believes' is protected under the law, while what is rational, even provable is condemned as heresy. A world where to question ignorance and intolerance is to commit a Crime against Faith. Ben Elton's dark, savagely comic novel imagines a post-apocalyptic society where religious intolerance combines with a confessional sex obsessed, self-centric culture to create a world where nakedness is modesty, ignorance is wisdom and privacy is a dangerous perversion. It offers a chilling vision of what's to come? Or something rather closer to what we call reality?

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    There's a new religion I keep hearing about called "Science". Some people think it is a cult.

    They try to limit people's beliefs using an arcane system called "Scientific Method".

    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".

    I can't say any more in case they get me for blaspheming!
    bleah.

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    There's a new religion I keep hearing about called "Science". Some people think it is a cult.

    They try to limit people's beliefs using an arcane system called "Scientific Method".

    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".

    I can't say any more in case they get me for blaspheming!

    Oooh, burn the witch!!!!

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    There's a new religion I keep hearing about called "Science". Some people think it is a cult.

    They try to limit people's beliefs using an arcane system called "Scientific Method".

    They want our country to change its laws to make it harder to hold beliefs that are not "Scientific".

    I can't say any more in case they get me for blaspheming!
    "try to limit people's beliefs" very droll indeed - been looking at any Christian Apologetics sites

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm against all laws which reduce freedom of speech. (Excluding willful mischief.)

    I quite like the idea of the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill which protects all religions from unreasonable attack.
    Im confused about these two statements. They seem to be conflicting. Freedom of speech means it is possible to discuss anything, including, for example, how Jesus is a made up person. To people who believe he isn't, its not hard to see how they would see that as an "unreasonable attack", but it isn't. The Racial and Religious Hatred Bill probably has to be kept in an airtight box, stinking of poo as it so obviously does

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Im confused about these two statements. They seem to be conflicting. Freedom of speech means it is possible to discuss anything, including, for example, how Jesus is a made up person. To people who believe he isn't, its not hard to see how they would see that as an "unreasonable attack", but it isn't.
    The *idea* is that the Bill will allow you to say "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddah is a made up person", but stop you saying "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddah is a made up person, therefore people who believe in him should die a horrible death!"

    Seems reasonable to me.

    I don't know if the bill has had any effect at all so-far.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The *idea* is that the Bill will allow you to say "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddah is a made up person", but stop you saying "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddah is a made up person, therefore people who believe in him should die a horrible death!"

    Seems reasonable to me.

    I don't know if the bill has had any effect at all so-far.
    Yes, but it doesn't work.

    Remember that the working definition employed under the act designed to eliminate racial hatred is that if the victim feels that the crime was racially motivated, then it is treated as a racially motivated crime. This undermines a basic principle of law that you must intend to commit the crime with which you are charged (with the exception of particular crimes where no intent is required - speeding, for example, can be committed by inadvertence).

    So who defines what statements are 'religious hatred'? If I say 'religion is stupid' or more particularly 'such and such a religion is stupid', then have I committed a crime?

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    Re: Blasphemy

    I have no religous views whatsoever.

    I have no problem with people who are religous, religion is a great comfort to millions of people all over the world.

    problems occur when people have a "my religion is the only religion which is true."

    I try and live my life true and honest, but we are all tempted by various things and we all give in to temptation at one time or another.

    If you can do a man/woman a good turn....Do it.

    If you can do a man/woman a bad turn and choose not to...................

    ...What more can anyone ask...Tolerance and friendship.

    Not wanting to kill someone who has mistakenly insulted a religous figure...

    Whats the phrase...All forgiving and all loving.......

    Be nice and get along.

    XXX XXX DTS Dave


    Ps if that doesnt work take off and nuke them from orbit....Its the only way to be sure.

    Peace thro superior firepower.
    Last edited by dave the scaffolder; 1st-December-2007 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Praise the Lord and pass the machine gun bullets

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    I have no religous views whatsoever.

    I have no problem with people who are religous, religion is a great comfort to millions of people all over the world.

    problems occur when people have a "my religion is the only religion which is true."

    I try and live my life true and honest, but we are all tempted by various things and we all give in to temptation at one time or another.

    If you can do a man/woman a good turn....Do it.

    If you can do a man/woman a bad turn and choose not to...................

    ...What more can anyone ask...Tolerance and friendship.

    Not wanting to kill someone who has mistakenly insulted a religous figure...

    Whats the phrase...All forgiving and all loving.......

    Be nice and get along.

    .


    When we were in turkey our guide was a turkish Kurd when he grew up he had to learn and respect all religeons to become a muslum

    basicly all religeons say the same thing then do something completely different ie Thou shalt not kill then pray before going of to war
    Hypocrasy is so easy when its tied to religeon

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The *idea* is that the Bill
    the "idea" is whatever the original sponsors of the bill thought it was , that idea will probably be lost completely when its interpreted by the bewigged fraternity

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Finally...

    My 10 million second computer program has finished. (My 7 and a half million second program must have had a bug .. it only printed out a two digit number.. 24.. what kind of nonsense is that! 42 I could have accepted!)

    Anyway my computer program has generated the most mathematically perfect religion possible. By analysing the dogma in the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita etc etc I have boiled down religion to one solitary root commandment thus rendering all other forms of religion obsolete.

    This great truth was once uttered by two famous prophets ..

    "Be excellent to each other.... and party on dudes"

    sage advice indeed my most excellent friends... < air guitar >

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    Re: Blasphemy

    sounds good to me - unfortunately we won't be protected by the religious-smells-of-poo law cause they'll say its not a real religion.....

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    Re: Blasphemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    sounds good to me - unfortunately we won't be protected by the religious-smells-of-poo law cause they'll say its not a real religion.....
    How does this law define a "real" religion, btw?

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