View Poll Results: Should the In & Out be scrapped from the beginners lesson?

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Thread: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

  1. #81
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    IWhat's wrong with teaching beginners to maintain a degree of resistance, cross-pressure, tone or whatever else you want to call it instead.
    Because it's not WCS?

    The connection changes from compression to tension and back again during most moves; This initial connection is giving the follower momentum that will continue in the direction you gave it untill another force acts uppon it. You are then guiding the follower's momentum rather than pulling or pushing through the lead.

    I think that teaching beginners to resist the lead (no matter how it's phrased) is heading towards breading physically stronger and louder connections where partners shout at each other rather than whispering and there is a greater danger of becoming 'yankers'. Of course in an enviroment where drops and arials are more common (Oz), a physically stronger lead may be desirable.

  2. #82
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Going back to the OP...

    Unlike others, I think the "accordion" motion is pretty intrinsic to MJ dancing - looking at an average social scene, it's almost impossible to see couples who don't use it quite a lot during a dance.

    (OK, we could quibble about what "intrinsic" means, but if it's used that much, I'd call it intrinsic)

    So, no, it shouldn't be banned, any more than turns and returns should be.

  3. #83
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The connection changes from compression to tension and back again during most moves; This initial connection is giving the follower momentum that will continue in the direction you gave it untill another force acts uppon it. You are then guiding the follower's momentum rather than pulling or pushing through the lead.

    I think that teaching beginners to resist the lead (no matter how it's phrased) is heading towards breading physically stronger and louder connections where partners shout at each other rather than whispering and there is a greater danger of becoming 'yankers'.
    There's a very big difference between 'degree of resistance, cross-pressure, tone or whatever else you want to call it' and actually resisting the lead. In the course of a previous discussion, I was moved to actually measure (as best I could), the force I use in general leading with a good follower. I'd say it's around 4oz (~1N for the pedants), though it probably peaks significantly higher occasionally. So obviously it doesn't take much cross-pressure to match that - but if it isn't there, it's very obvious. (in simple terms, if it isn't there, 99 to 1 the follower isn't actually going to follow what I lead).

    Of course in an enviroment where drops and arials are more common (Oz), a physically stronger lead may be desirable.
    That must be why DavidB is famed for having such a heavy lead...

    Snarkiness aside, if your normal lead is light, it gives you a lot more 'range' for indicating something unusual might be about to happen without having to crank the force up to a level where neither of you are really in control. Even if I lead an "advanced" drop on Bryony, the force I use stays way inside 'comfortable' - which is nice, because for one thing it means she can easily backlead out of it if she's not keen.

  4. #84
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Because it's not WCS?
    That's right. You still need connection though, so....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    There's a very big difference between 'degree of resistance, cross-pressure, tone or whatever else you want to call it' and actually resisting the lead. In the course of a previous discussion, I was moved to actually measure (as best I could), the force I use in general leading with a good follower. I'd say it's around 4oz (~1N for the pedants), though it probably peaks significantly higher occasionally. So obviously it doesn't take much cross-pressure to match that - but if it isn't there, it's very obvious. (in simple terms, if it isn't there, 99 to 1 the follower isn't actually going to follow what I lead).




    Of course in an enviroment where drops and arials are more common (Oz), a physically stronger lead may be desirable.
    Or not, and they're just just good enough that they don't need excessive force as a crutch

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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...or only for the 8 beats before starting the move while the teacher counts us in.....?
    That would work.
    Leverage or compression?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    In the course of a previous discussion, I was moved to actually measure (as best I could), the force I use in general leading with a good follower.
    Interesting. How did you measure it?

  6. #86
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Interesting. How did you measure it?
    Set up a line providing horizontal tension and measured when it "felt" about the same as leading. On one level pretty subjective and inaccurate, but even 1lb definitely felt like "a heavy follow" rather than a good one.

  7. #87
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...or only for the 8 beats before starting the move while the teacher counts us in.....?

    Surely nobody is such a punny little wimp that this would be a problem.
    I am that wimp. My arm tires very quickly if I maintain the tension without moving it. And in the lesson that would happen a lot, if there were no semi-circle or in and out.
    One of the independent companies I sometimes go to did away with semi-circle, and I find that initial push-away motion of theirs takes me aback. I am not ready to push back, and leaders use too much force, which is unnecessary.
    Last edited by nebula; 29th-February-2008 at 12:30 AM.

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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I think that teaching beginners to resist the lead (no matter how it's phrased)
    Thats a silly word though - resist ?! People should be taught to feel and notice the lead - and when they find there isn't one anymore to stop moving Surely yanking is caused by the stop/start application of the lead not the continous connection.

    is heading towards breading physically stronger and louder connections where partners shout at each other rather than whispering and there is a greater danger of becoming 'yankers'.
    Quite the opposite. The better the connection the more you communicate with the slightest movement - leading to less force and less chance of yanking.

    Of course in an enviroment where drops and arials are more common (Oz), a physically stronger lead may be desirable.
    Why?

  9. #89
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Thats a silly word though - resist ?! People should be taught to feel and notice the lead - and when they find there isn't one anymore to stop moving Surely yanking is caused by the stop/start application of the lead not the continous connection.
    The best summary I have heard for connection is 'Match the pressure' This was at one of Franck's workshops. Resisting could be one term for matching the pressure but there's no point arguing about semantics since the rest of your para reflects the MTP idea pretty well.

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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    The way I teach it is to match. I also suggest that the tension should be roughly the same as leaning in to a wall and doing push-ups.

    The in-out forms alot of the beginners routines I will teach. This is only a refresher vid and not instructional.

  11. #91
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    The best summary I have heard for connection is 'Match the pressure' This was at one of Franck's workshops. Resisting could be one term for matching the pressure but there's no point arguing about semantics since the rest of your para reflects the MTP idea pretty well.

    I don't really have a problem with "resist" either to be honest, i just felt that Gadget had picked up on that word specifically in "resist the lead" to mean "fight", rather different to what I think NZ monkey actually meant. So it was the apparant definition I was really complaining about.

  12. #92
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Where's the fish-hook smiley?....
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I don't really have a problem with "resist" either to be honest, i just felt that Gadget had picked up on that word specifically in "resist the lead" to mean "fight", rather different to what I think NZ monkey actually meant. So it was the apparent definition I was really complaining about.
    "Resistance is futile" "The French resistance" "Viruses build resistance to drugs" "the act or power of resisting, opposing, or withstanding." "the opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another"

    Resistance to me is a term of conflict and battle and forcefully trying to go against the flow. In terms of leading and following, "resistance" I think is a bad thing.

    People should be taught to feel and notice the lead - and when they find there isn't one anymore to stop moving Surely yanking is caused by the stop/start application of the lead not the continuous connection.
    I agree: yanking is caused by the stop/start application. But "yanking" when you only have a fingertip connection as opposed to a forceful hand-hold with lots of resistance between partners.

    is heading towards breading physically stronger and louder connections where partners shout at each other rather than whispering and there is a greater danger of becoming 'yankers'.
    Quite the opposite. The better the connection the more you communicate with the slightest movement - leading to less force and less chance of yanking.
    You can feel the passing of air with your fingertips. You can feel when a feather is lifted from your hand. Why do you need to feel all of your partner's weight and strength in the connection? A "stronger" connection is not necessarily a "better" connection.
    Multiple lighter connections, visual connections, a larger surface area to feel the connection over, each connection communicating the same thing, ... these are ways to get a better signal through the connection. Physical force, resisting the signals being given and using strength to force the signals through within the connection are all detrimental to leading in my opinion.

    Of course in an environment where drops and arials are more common (Oz), a physically stronger lead may be desirable.
    Why?
    Because it's easier to maintain a grip to balance your partner's weight when you can grip your partner... I did say may be desirable. Perhaps the lead only needs to change in preparation for the "big move"? I don't lead them, I wouldn't know

  13. #93
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Where's the fish-hook smiley?....


    "Resistance is futile" "The French resistance" "Viruses build resistance to drugs" "the act or power of resisting, opposing, or withstanding." "the opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another"

    Resistance to me is a term of conflict and battle and forcefully trying to go against the flow. In terms of leading and following, "resistance" I think is a bad thing.
    Yes I know you do but you're bewildered. In dance i take it to mean the dictionary definition "opposition offered by one thing to another" i.e. you conintually notice "it" (the connection) is there and there is no force, strength or harsh language involved.

    I agree: yanking is caused by the stop/start application. But "yanking" when you only have a fingertip connection as opposed to a forceful hand-hold with lots of resistance between partners.
    There you go misusing the word again...but hang on are you saying "yanking" is inevitable? you make it sound as if a start/stop connection is a way people should dance (yes i know people will lose a physical connection at some point but surely you "start" again when there is no "resistance" )


    Why do you need to feel all of your partner's weight and strength in the connection? A "stronger" connection is not necessarily a "better" connection.
    Indeed - who is saying it is. You're still arguing about "resistance"

    Physical force, resisting the signals being given and using strength to force the signals through within the connection are all detrimental to leading in my opinion.
    me too. not that i dance anymore, so its all theory


    Because it's easier to maintain a grip to balance your partner's weight when you can grip your partner... I did say may be desirable.
    Then you may be wrong then see DF's post for his opinion on a forceful lead into an aerial.

  14. #94
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    That would work.
    Leverage or compression?
    Given that virtually every MJ move when isolated starts with a step back this would be compression. In class it's never been mentioned and never been an issue since when the moves are linked together that step back is both the end of the last move and the beginning of the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    "Resistance is futile" "The French resistance" "Viruses build resistance to drugs" "the act or power of resisting, opposing, or withstanding." "the opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another"

    Resistance to me is a term of conflict and battle and forcefully trying to go against the flow. In terms of leading and following, "resistance" I think is a bad thing.
    Can you feel your partner when you dance Gadget? Can she feel you?

    If the answer to either (and I sincererly hope both....) of these questions is true then there is some resistance between you. It's impossible to lead or follow without resitance. The question then becomes how much is necessary, and how to apply it for maximum effect.

  15. #95
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Can you feel your partner when you dance Gadget? Can she feel you?
    ... can I take this upstairs?

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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by nebula View Post
    One of the independent companies I sometimes go to did away with semi-circle, and I find that initial push-away motion of theirs takes me aback. I am not ready to push back, and leaders use too much force, which is unnecessary.
    imo, you shouldn't push back, you should step back. If you allow your arm to collapse at this time, the only way the lead can make you step back is to push more - so you feel more force. It ought to be entirely up to you how much force the lead can use on you (within reason).
    If you are not ready, give them more weight from your arm during the count in, and explain to them that on the gap between 8 & 1, they need to try raising their hand about 2.54cm in preparation to starting the lead.

    The fact that this causes problems for you ought to be a reason to teach it, and work out where the problems are - it ought to make life easier for at least you or one of the leads in the class!

    Sean

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