View Poll Results: Should the In & Out be scrapped from the beginners lesson?

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Thread: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

  1. #61
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lesons?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Me, I trace the boundary of the set {c s.t. orbit of 0 under z |-> z^2+c is bounded}. Sadly, after that, there's not a lot of time left for dancing...
    May I suggest you try Argentine tango.
    1. You don't have to find anything other than what you hear in the music to dance to
    2. No matter how long you take before you lead the first step, she will accept you are showing musicality.

  2. #62
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lesons?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    May I suggest you try Argentine tango.
    1. You don't have to find anything other than what you hear in the music to dance to
    2. No matter how long you take before you lead the first step, she will accept you are showing musicality.
    It's great, isn't it? - you can spend half a dance just standing there, and you can pass it off by saying you're just building a connection

  3. #63
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lesons?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    It's great, isn't it? - you can spend half a dance just standing there...
    Does DavidB know about this dance style...?

  4. #64
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Just to go back to the point on the semicircle.

    I struggle to work out the lead ethics in a large semicircle in the air to the left or to the right, the dance is a Jive which works backwards and forwards and is built by tension created by a stepping back movement, to start a dance with a circle is beyond belief.
    I realise that when you dance you must step back but to add a circle!, a semicircle is just a semicircle, in fact you can add several and nothing will happen because it’s a movement to the side of the dancer with “zero” tension and zero lead. Why do it at all !!

    I have watched Strictly for weeks to see if they start with a semicircle. But no.. it’s always a push pull lead. Do they know something that the Ceroc dancers don’t. well yes, the semicircle is pointless.

    Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?
    NO it's what the dance is based on. if you take out the In & Out it's no longer a jive based dance.

    I think I need to make my semicircle much much bigger.

  5. #65
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    I agree the In-and-Out is fundamental to MJ, like the 'Mambo' move is to Salsa - It's like a move without any unnecessary movement - the 'Basic Step' on which others are based. It can be used to establish, test or correct 'arm tension', even with intermediates.
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Most of the followers do it with weak wrists/spaghetti arms. They are like that in freestyle as well. As they are not really getting it, it means most of the dances I have there feel slow and not connected.
    I find that saying 'arms are springs' helps here. As an (ex-)Taxi, at 9pm Refresher I even try to get the men to lead their partners faster or slower by making the springs stronger or weaker.

    It pairs with a similar 'round-and-back' move - the 'Almost Ladyspin', I think, for those that struggle with the Yoyo and leading rotation.

    I don't have a problem with the Semicircle. Faced with 'spaghetti arms', will a straight push-back do anything (without verbal discussion of technique)? Maybe a Semicircle works better for beginners? Needs research on muggleses. That said, it's probably only needed in the lesson, not when dancing.

    Interested that a couple of you use a 1-hand In-and-out. I noticed myself using that as a starter move at a freestyle (double resistance?). I also throw them into side-to-side(-to-side...) moves at random to illustrate the subtle difference between a straight lead and a turning lead.

    I don't think they're competition-winners though, even decorated !

  6. #66
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I don't have a problem with the Semicircle.
    There's no real natural physical reason why moving your hand in a semi-circle should lead your partner to step back. If in doubt, try this with a non-dancer and see what they do. In fact, try it with a salsa dancer and see what they do.

    So the semi-circle is not a "lead" - something which has a relationship to a natural action. Compare this to lifting your right hand up when leading a neckbreak - this is a natural, because your hand has to be there to take the follower's. Similarly, lifting your right hand for a manspin is natural, because you need to lift your hand to get it out of the way.

    The semi-circle is a signal - it depends on your partner knowing the "code". It's not necessary to leading a step back.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Faced with 'spaghetti arms', will a straight push-back do anything (without verbal discussion of technique)?
    Yes.

    It should probably be more natural to step back based on a push, than based on a semi-circle. It's a lead, not a signal. I'm quite confident that I could lead most absolute beginners to step back based on a push, if led correctly. And if they get it wrong the first time, so what? That's why it's called learning; they'll get it right next time.

  7. #67
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Faced with 'spaghetti arms', will a straight push-back do anything (without verbal discussion of technique)?
    Yes. In my experience it will usually result in the follower's arm(s) travelling backwards (and upwards assuming they remain connected to the shoulder!) but not their body.

  8. #68
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So the semi-circle is not a "lead" - something which has a relationship to a natural action.
    ~
    The semi-circle is a signal - it depends on your partner knowing the "code". It's not necessary to leading a step back.
    The semi-circle is not the lead to step back; it comes before the lead. It not being a 'natural' action is part of what makes it a signal - it gives the partners a chance to establish a connection and tells the followers to expect a lead.

    ...I'm going to try leading a step forward after a semi-circle and see what happens... just because I'm evil

  9. #69
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The semi-circle is not the lead to step back; it comes before the lead. It not being a 'natural' action is part of what makes it a signal - it gives the partners a chance to establish a connection and tells the followers to expect a lead.
    Why? Is there some magical power obtained by moving your hand in a semi-circle or something? Is this a Wiccan thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ...I'm going to try leading a step forward after a semi-circle and see what happens... just because I'm evil
    That's only valid if you lead it on an absolute beginner - someone who knows the code doesn't count.

    A more valid experiment is moving the hand without trying to lead a step back - see if your follower is so conditioned that she steps back anyhow.

  10. #70
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    A more valid experiment is moving the hand without trying to lead a step back - see if your follower is so conditioned that she steps back anyhow.
    quite a few 4 and 5 week people will move if you just do a semi circle as they are concentrating so hard they pick up most movements by the lead i still dislike the semicircle though

  11. #71
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why? Is there some magical power obtained by moving your hand in a semi-circle or something? Is this a Wiccan thing?
    Why the semi-circle? because it's not side-to side, it's not front to back and it's not up and down: it's the least likley movement I can think on to be confused with a proper lead.
    Why use it at all? Because in a class you are standing without having established a connection - if you simply push your hand back, the follower's hand moves back then they do: From a static position you have to either lead earlier, give a subtle 'pre-emptive' pull or lead with your body before your hand to get the follower moving in time. These are way to subtle and complex for a newbie. A semi-circle grants you the mystical power of communication: "you are about to be lead... please let me lead you" (the Wiccan powers require a full circle - sorry)

    A more valid experiment is moving the hand without trying to lead a step back - see if your follower is so conditioned that she steps back anyhow.
    But I'm not aiming to confuse my partner: "I'm about to lead you... HA! got you! no I'm not " I'm aiming to establish a connection so that I can lead them.

    {Personally I never use it in freestyle; I always have a connection before I start to dance - only use it in classes where I need to establish one first }

  12. #72
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    quite a few 4 and 5 week people will move if you just do a semi circle as they are concentrating so hard they pick up most movements by the lead i still dislike the semicircle though
    Quite a few 4-5 week people will do the semi circle for you!
    Last edited by Steven666; 11th-January-2008 at 02:59 PM.

  13. #73
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Wuite a few 4-5 week people will do the semi circle for you!

  14. #74
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    It's even funnier when they do it to THEIR left or THEIR right!!!

  15. #75
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Firstly I thought I never do the in out in freestyling, but having thought a bit more about it, I do sometimes, to correct ballance.
    When the girl ends up off ballance for what ever reason, I support her, then I step towards her and away to give her time.

    Not a planned thing, just something that happens.

    The in out, is taught at my local venue at the start of every beginner lesson, with a straight push back and pull forward, and tensions are explained, as is 'wait' for the leader to initiate the move. It is not taught later in the routine as a 'move'.

    This I think is good, as a total newbe, can grasp the basic step and all the rest flows from there.

    I think the more experienced dancers need to understand that at any beginner class there will be people there for the first time and the beginner class needs to support this.

  16. #76
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    The in-out is the most important move there is, if taught correctly.

    The in-out is what I will be basing all of my lessons on. It is there for tension, compression and for killing a couple of beats before the end of a musical phase.

    Also there are many variations you can do with it that will actually make your dancing look alot more stylish than it would without doing it.

    As for the semicircle, a big no,no. Most teachers that teach it, dont know the reason for doing it anyway. You should always know the reason you teach what you teach.

  17. #77
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    I realise this reply is a few weeks late, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Why use it at all? Because in a class you are standing without having established a connection - if you simply push your hand back, the follower's hand moves back then they do: From a static position you have to either lead earlier, give a subtle 'pre-emptive' pull or lead with your body before your hand to get the follower moving in time. These are way to subtle and complex for a newbie. A semi-circle grants you the mystical power of communication: "you are about to be lead... please let me lead you" (the Wiccan powers require a full circle - sorry)
    What's wrong with teaching beginners to maintain a degree of resistance, cross-pressure, tone or whatever else you want to call it instead. If you really wanted you could even try to teach them to pay attention to their partner (shocking, I know.... ).

    It might be a little harder for the teacher to start with, but it helps to build very important skills before bad habits have had a chance to creep in. I'm not convinced it's very much harder for the punters either as the beginners in Australia and New Zealand seem to manage.

  18. #78
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    What's wrong with teaching beginners to maintain a degree of resistance, cross-pressure, tone or whatever else you want to call it instead.
    It might be too tiring for some of them to maintain that pressure all the time.

  19. #79
    Registered User nebula's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    I agree - in the freestyle, it's all tension/pull/push that goes with the flow of lead/follow and music. Try being a beginner - maintaining that tension stationary in the class waiting for that next move to be explained, or dreading the "8" count - your arm will drop down of its own accord because of the muscle cramp.

  20. #80
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the In & Out be scrapped from lessons?

    ...or only for the 8 beats before starting the move while the teacher counts us in.....?

    Surely nobody is such a punny little wimp that this would be a problem.

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