Men! Do you bark orders at/correct your follower mid-dance?

[David Bailey]

I do that all the time. Keep telling them "what did you do that for", "what do you think that was", "ever heard of lead and FOLLOW", "stop trying to look good, it isn't working" and the likes. It makes sure that only those come back asking for a dance that are into punishment. So you can easily characterise your dance partners for apres dance.

Andreas! Hey, welcome back!

And yes, that sounds like a good plan to me

[Andreas]

Thanks DJ. I was told (by) somebody I frequently dance with (I still do dance occasionally ) that she hates one-finger leads and I should check that topic. Not sure why I strayed into the wrong one, though. Maybe because I always wanted to admit to this. You know, our group stopped asking me to talk, so I had to keep it all inside for a loooong time. Feeling better now, though.

[Isis]

Being rude and inconsiderate is not restricted to one gender.

My brother was keen to learn Ceroc after I took him to a party night on our birthday.

At his first class, one woman shouted at him that he wasn't turning her properly and then, for good measure, shouted over the hall to me that I should have taught him to turn a lady properly before bringing him.

Funnily enough he wasn't interested in coming back.

[Terpsichorea]

My brother was keen to learn Ceroc after I took him to a party night on our birthday.

At his first class, one woman shouted at him that he wasn't turning her properly and then, for good measure, shouted over the hall to me that I should have taught him to turn a lady properly before bringing him.

Funnily enough he wasn't interested in coming back.

That's a real shame - has he never been back since?

[Lory]

I It makes sure that only those come back asking for a dance that are into punishment. So you can easily characterise your dance partners for apres dance.

Gosh! I'm worried about myself now, as I love dancing with you

OK, seeing as Andreas has confessed his evil ways.. I'm going to confess something too!

I danced with a guy over the weekend, who i've danced with several times before and thoroughly enjoyed, but he's suddenly developed a really annoying habit..

..everytime my hand ended up round his neck or on his shoulder, he'd do this weird shoulder shrug thing, to flick my hand off. It looked naff and felt awful! Apart from that, he's really lovely to dance with!!

The first song was fast, so it was just a momentary annoyance every now and then but the second dance was such a beautiful track, really smooth and flowy and it started to really grate on me! Anyway, I battled with myself and tried all my powers of self restraint not to say anything but sadly, in the end, my big mouth got the better of me.

I really felt like shouting STOP DOING THAT!

No, I didn't pull a face (at least I hope I didn't) or say anything horrible, I just said, you know, it would feel so much nicer, if you just let my hand gently drift down your arm, into your hand, the other way feels a little abrupt! Sweet arent I ?

I don't think he was mortally wounded and I hopefully i've saved him from looking like a weirdo with some sort of nervous twitch in the future!

[Andreas]

I really felt like shouting STOP DOING THAT!

No, I didn't pull a face (at least I hope I didn't) or say anything horrible, I just said, you know, it would feel so much nicer, if you just let my hand gently drift down your arm, into your hand, the other way feels a little abrupt! Sweet arent I ?

To quote somebody else from another thread, I am certain you wanted to say

I get annoying but don't show it at all.

[StokeBloke]

Teaching aggressive techniques probably won't help, unless you view partner dancing as some kind of wrestling match.

Who said anything about aggression? If the lead thinks he's "all that", he should be able to easily cope with a couple of sabotage moves

[Lory]

I do that all the time. Keep telling them "what did you do that for", "what do you think that was", "ever heard of lead and FOLLOW", "stop trying to look good, it isn't working" and the likes. It makes sure that only those come back asking for a dance that are into punishment. So you can easily characterise your dance partners for apres dance.

To quote somebody else from another thread, I am certain you wanted to say

I get annoying but don't show it at all.

The thing with you Andreas I know when say all those cutting remarks (above) its just your way of flirting!

[David Bailey]

Who said anything about aggression? If the lead thinks he's "all that", he should be able to easily cope with a couple of sabotage moves

It's just a "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, to my mind. It's like teaching revenge, it smacks of being petty.

If the leader's wrong, then it's the leader that needs help.

[Andreas]

The thing with you Andreas I know when say all those cutting remarks (above) its just your way of flirting!

*Goes off to library to find book against transparency*

[JonD]

Unless the snotty attitude is coming from a member of the crew - it's been known.

I bet it has! To my knowledge, we've not encountered that on Nelson's team but I suspect a word with either Nelson or one of the more "senior" crew members would get it sorted very, very quickly - thinking about it, it'd be probably be best if it was dealt with by the crew as a team rather than by Nelson; less likelihood of bloodshed.

[Jamie]

It's just a "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, to my mind. It's like teaching revenge, it smacks of being petty.

If the leader's wrong, then it's the leader that needs help.

That's true, but leaders who think they're all that and obviously know more than any MJer in the room, enough to correct followers rudely, then why should they listen to anyone about their dancing? Theirs is fantastic.

If however a more experienced follow starts sabotaging and hijacking him, he suddenly realises he has more to learn... That or he'll shout "WHERE ARE YOU GOING? I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO DO THAT!" or "WHOS LEADING HERE!?!"...

--

None of the men at any of my venues are this rude... We're friendly up here... OR ELSE

[MartinHarper]

Mkay...so if you were dancing with a woman, and she stopped mid-dance, looked you up and down and remarked, you're not very good are you? (as happened to a woman I danced with last night) you'd maintain your sang-froid?

That is correct. Like the women you spoke to, I have enough wisdom to realise the futility of "retaliating" by offering negative feedback of my own, and enough self-control to avoid futile retaliation.

If a follower was being dangerous and/or painful, then yes, of course, I'd interject. What I wouldn't do is start doling out unsolicited advice

How were you planning to interject without providing unsolicited advice?

[David Bailey]

That's true, but leaders who think they're all that and obviously know more than any MJer in the room, enough to correct followers rudely, then why should they listen to anyone about their dancing? Theirs is fantastic.

I believe that's known as a teaching challenge. That's why you guys get paid the big bucks, in other words

If teaching was just a matter of show-and-tell, always done to a receptive and eager audience, then any fool could do it. The hard part about teaching is getting the message across to everyone, fools included. Because we're all fools at some point.

If however a more experienced follow starts sabotaging and hijacking him, he suddenly realises he has more to learn...

If these people won't listen to the teachers, why should they listen to their partners? Presumably, they'll just think that their partners are poor followers (or, even poorer). Or are you suggesting that the partners explain why they're hijacking? If so, why shouldn't the partners simply tell the guy what he's doing wrong in the first place?

I'm sorry, but I think this is a dangerous track to go down. If a policeman sees someone being mugged, should he offer self-defence advice to the victim, or should he arrest the criminal?

None of the men at any of my venues are this rude... We're friendly up here... OR ELSE

See? You can enforce some things with enough effort.

[bigdjiver]

Out of curiosity, I've asked most of the women I've danced with this week whether they've ever been ordered around/mocked or treated with contempt by male leads, and I was surprised to discover that virtually all of them have been on the end of this kind of treatment...

I have never "barked orders". I have given instructions from time to time. (e.g. last night) I wanted to do a move sequence that I (rightly) thought my partner would enjoy, so there was a bit of instruction, mock disgust when she got it wrong (rightly taken as the joke intended) and, in the end, we "got it", and she seemed very happy.

I fear that there are a few times when my mock disgust is taken as a real reprimand, not as a joke. I would never seriously criticise anybodies dancing, except on the grounds of safety. I have only ever had to do that once. Unfortunately a lot of beginners are under some strain and cannot recognise an attempt at humour, so I have learned to be more careful with my humour.

[Isis]

That's a real shame - has he never been back since?

I'm afraid not

[Lou]

I'm sorry, but I think this is a dangerous track to go down. If a policeman sees someone being mugged, should he offer self-defence advice to the victim, or should he arrest the criminal?

I was thinking about this today. Jamie teaching his ladies to sabotage is empowering them. They can't control whether their partner is willing to learn to improve his dancing. Even Jamie, with the best will in the world, can't. Only the Leader can make that decision. However, sabotage is a small way that a Follow can control the situation.

In a perfect world, there will be a policeman around every corner to stop and catch muggers. But whilst there isn't, learning self-defence will help you feel less afraid to walk around that corner.

[StokeBloke]

I'm sorry, but I think this is a dangerous track to go down. If a policeman sees someone being mugged, should he offer self-defence advice to the victim, or should he arrest the criminal?

Both. Like your analogy this isn't an either/or situation. Education on both parts, teach the follow how to deal with arrogant a55holes and teach the arrogant a55holes some manners too, everyone's a winner baby

[Jamie]

I believe that's known as a teaching challenge. That's why you guys get paid the big bucks, in other words

If teaching was just a matter of show-and-tell, always done to a receptive and eager audience, then any fool could do it. The hard part about teaching is getting the message across to everyone, fools included. Because we're all fools at some point.

As I said, I don't have anyone who shouts at their followers in my classes, I just get followers from different classes who come to me for help and advice...

[Connie]

As I said, I don't have anyone who shouts at their followers in my classes, I just get followers from different classes who come to me for help and advice...

Could you please come and teach down my way