Men! Do you bark orders at/correct your follower mid-dance?

[Terpsichorea]

Out of curiosity, I've asked most of the women I've danced with this week whether they've ever been ordered around/mocked or treated with contempt by male leads, and I was surprised to discover that virtually all of them have been on the end of this kind of treatment.

So what I was wondering is...why do men do this? (I didn't get any reports of female leads behaving in this way) What do they hope to achieve by breaking off mid-dance to correct their follower, or making little if any effort to mask their disgust if their partner doesn't match their expectations?

My own theory is that the ratio of men to women in MJ (and probably most forms of partner dancing) creates a demand for men, and therefore enables them to be choosey about who they deign to dance with. Maybe this helps to explain the cavalier attitude of a lot of them.

But what also annoys me is that women never seem to retaliate! When I asked these women what their reaction was when the man sighed/groaned/looked at his watch/rolled his eyes heavenwards, they just shrug and say I ignored it.

I realise that a lot of this behaviour is also the preserve of local hotshots with a big-fish-small-pond mentality, but I still wonder what they hope to achieve by alienating a lot of the women they dance with?

[Steven666]

I never do it. But I also have a good face memory. ;-)

[Jamie]

Most of them just feel as if they're so much better than any other person in the room, and as such therefore have the right to tell others how to follow a basket "their way".. etc..

This is why I teach every woman who has ever been treated like that how to sabotage basic beginner moves. Sabotages are hilarious to watch when done on the early intermedate "i'm incredible" dancer who tell all ladies they're doing it wrong, because their face says it all... "Oh.. f***"... Hehe!

[Terpsichorea]

Most of them just feel as if they're so much better than any other person in the room, and as such therefore have the right to tell others how to follow a basket "their way".. etc..

This is why I teach every woman who has ever been treated like that how to sabotage basic beginner moves. Sabotages are hilarious to watch when done on the early intermedate "i'm incredible" dancer who tell all ladies they're doing it wrong, because their face says it all... "Oh.. f***"... Hehe!

I wish more sabotage workshops were taught, but there never seem to be any on - I bet I know a lot of women who would like to attend! (perhaps a thought for the future?)

[MartinHarper]

What do they hope to achieve by breaking off mid-dance to correct their follower?

A better follower with fewer injuries.

making little if any effort to mask their disgust if their partner doesn't match their expectations?

I think this is an equal opportunities mistake: there are plenty of men and women in the world who do not have a permanent awareness of and control of their facial expressions, including within dancing. I'm told that this is a particular problem for older people, because a relaxed old face looks less happy than a relaxed youthful face. Essentially it's a question of charisma, emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and social skills. Some of us are better than others in these areas.
Myself, I do my best not to read too much into facial expressions without a baseline of some sort. If my partner looks vaguelly disgusted whoever she dances with, it's probably an artifact of her facial structure and overall mood, rather than a signal that I shouldn't dance with her again.

Having said that, there might be a slight imbalance here caused by the differing personality types that are attracted to leading, compared to following.

What also annoys me is that women never seem to retaliate!

It seems that these women are wiser than you, then.

[David Bailey]

Sabotages are hilarious to watch when done on the early intermedate "i'm incredible" dancer who tell all ladies they're doing it wrong, because their face says it all... "Oh.. f***"... Hehe!

Hard to believe there's a shortage of men, really, when official Ceroc teachers are teaching women how to sabotage their leader as self-defence.

Wouldn't it be better to teach the poor leaders how to lead? Or am I missing some cunning plan?

[Terpsichorea]

It seems that these women are wiser than you, then.

Mkay...so if you were dancing with a woman, and she stopped mid-dance, looked you up and down and remarked, you're not very good are you? (as happened to a woman I danced with last night) you'd maintain your sang-froid? I doubt it....

[David Bailey]

I wish more sabotage workshops were taught

Ooh, yeah.

[JonD]

so if you were dancing with a woman, and she stopped mid-dance, looked you up and down and remarked, you're not very good are you? (as happened to a woman I danced with last night) you'd maintain your sang-froid?

Sadly, I suspect that a lot of leaders have experienced exactly that and maintained their sang-froid - I certainly have both in MJ and AT. Being rude and inconsiderate is not restricted to one gender. I still treasure the memory of being barked at for "leading the moves wrong" by a rather pompous lady I'd never danced with before; as I'd been trying for a year to stop leading sequences of moves in time to music and start dancing I said nothing and took it as a compliment.

Having said that, I really dislike folk attempting to teach others on the freestyle dancefloor without invitation, no matter their gender or ability level. (I'm not too keen on punters who do the same in classes unless they've got the necessary skills and tact).

If someone is behaving in this way regularly I'd have a word with a member of the crew; a quiet word from a taxi dancer or the teacher normally works wonders. I, and others of our crew, have successfully achieved an "attitude adjustment" with a number of people who were given to being overtly critical of others; a couple of challenging dances followed by a sympathetic and tactful reminder of the need for tolerance and encouragement seems to work. As has been noted, the guilty parties are not normally the most accomplished dancers so it isn't very difficult to stretch them out of their comfort zone in order to create the right opportunity to say something.

[Terpsichorea]

Sadly, I suspect that a lot of leaders have experienced exactly that and maintained their sang-froid - I certainly have both in MJ and AT. Being rude and inconsiderate is not restricted to one gender. I still treasure the memory of being barked at for "leading the moves wrong" by a rather pompous lady I'd never danced with before; as I'd been trying for a year to stop leading sequences of moves in time to music and start dancing I said nothing and took it as a compliment.

Having said that, I really dislike folk attempting to teach others on the freestyle dancefloor without invitation, no matter their gender or ability level. (I'm not too keen on punters who do the same in classes unless they've got the necessary skills and tact).

If someone is behaving in this way regularly I'd have a word with a member of the crew; a quiet word from a taxi dancer or the teacher normally works wonders. I, and others of our crew, have successfully achieved an "attitude adjustment" with a number of people who were given to being overtly critical of others; a couple of challenging dances followed by a sympathetic and tactful reminder of the need for tolerance and encouragement seems to work. As has been noted, the guilty parties are not normally the most accomplished dancers so it isn't very difficult to stretch them out of their comfort zone in order to create the right opportunity to say something.

Fair point, I'd accept that rudeness and inconsiderate behaviour isn't the preserve of men. I suppose my plaint is along the lines of why can't we all just get along?, as unrealistic on the dancefloor, I suspect, as it is in real life.

Additionally, I'd point out that if a follower was being dangerous and/or painful, then yes, of course, I'd interject. What I wouldn't do is start doling out unsolicited advice, or berate them for not being able to follow a move which is usually taught, rather than led.

[Lou]

Hard to believe there's a shortage of men, really, when official Ceroc teachers are teaching women how to sabotage their leader as self-defence.

Ahhhh... so that's the reason!

Mkay...so if you were dancing with a woman, and she stopped mid-dance, looked you up and down and remarked, you're not very good are you? (as happened to a woman I danced with last night) you'd maintain your sang-froid? I doubt it....

It happened to me when I was a beginner. It's devastating. OK - so I wasn't very good, and I was a beginner - but there are nicer ways of dealing with it. From that moment on I've had an aversion to men in black & white shoes.

Sadly, I suspect that a lot of leaders have experienced exactly that and maintained their sang-froid - I certainly have both in MJ and AT. Being rude and inconsiderate is not restricted to one gender.

Too right. I've had male friends tell me about their rude partners.

If someone is behaving in this way regularly I'd have a word with a member of the crew; a quiet word from a taxi dancer or the teacher normally works wonders.

Unless the snotty attitude is coming from a member of the crew - it's been known.

I, and others of our crew, have successfully achieved an "attitude adjustment" with a number of people who were given to being overtly critical of others; a couple of challenging dances followed by a sympathetic and tactful reminder of the need for tolerance and encouragement seems to work.

Top answer!

[David Bailey]

Ahhhh... so that's the reason!

Teaching aggressive techniques probably won't help, unless you view partner dancing as some kind of wrestling match.

All that said, I think it's fair to say that leaders are in a position of more "power" than followers, and can definitely abuse this position more. So yes, based on the Spiderman model, they have a greater responsibility than followers.

But the answer is not to teach the followers - they're doing nothing wrong - but to teach / correct the leaders. They're the ones with the problem, surely they should be the ones who need to fix it?

Otherwise you're just addressing the synptoms, not the cause.

[Lou]

Otherwise you're just addressing the synptoms, not the cause.

Ah, but sabotage is fun!

[Jhutch]

But what also annoys me is that women never seem to retaliate! When I asked these women what their reaction was when the man sighed/groaned/looked at his watch/rolled his eyes heavenwards, they just shrug and say I ignored it.

Why are you so certain this is their reaction to something the partner has done? Maybe the leader was disappointed that they weren't able to lead the move properly? Sort of an 'it went wrong again, why?' type thing? I know that the stock answer is to say, 'relax and have fun', but people do want to improve. When they do not feel they are doing so then they may show disappointment. I know that this has happened to me and been misinterpreted


Maybe some people who are trying hard and then find women won't dance with them when they get disappointed end up leaving?

[Terpsichorea]

Why are you so certain this is their reaction to something the partner has done? Maybe the leader was disappointed that they weren't able to lead the move properly? Sort of an 'it went wrong again, why?' type thing? I know that the stock answer is to say, 'relax and have fun', but people do want to improve. When they do not feel they are doing so then they may show disappointment. I know that this has happened to me and been misinterpreted


Maybe some people who are trying hard and then find women won't dance with them when they get disappointed end up leaving?

I think checking your watch is a pretty unambiguous sign that you're not totally involved in the dance...

Of course people want to improve - everybody does. But I think it's also a nice thing to recognise that the entity on the end of your arm is a person, not a vehicle solely for the acceleration of your betterment.

[Andreas]

I do that all the time. Keep telling them "what did you do that for", "what do you think that was", "ever heard of lead and FOLLOW", "stop trying to look good, it isn't working" and the likes. It makes sure that only those come back asking for a dance that are into punishment. So you can easily characterise your dance partners for apres dance.

[Jhutch]

I think checking your watch is a pretty unambiguous sign that you're not totally involved in the dance...

well that still leaves the three other things

Of course people want to improve - everybody does. But I think it's also a nice thing to recognise that the entity on the end of your arm is a person, not a vehicle solely for the acceleration of your betterment.

Undoubtedly But that doesnt mean that i cant wonder why things have gone wrong or have days where just nothing seems to go right etc. There are loads of things to think about anyway so trying to blank out facial expressions is sometimes a bit tricky.

[Terpsichorea]

well that still leaves the three other things



Undoubtedly But that doesnt mean that i cant wonder why things have gone wrong or have days where just nothing seems to go right etc. There are loads of things to think about anyway so trying to blank out facial expressions is sometimes a bit tricky.

Fair play re expressions, and I've been guilty of looking a bit stern when trying to lead something I find a bit taxing! Some people don't naturally have happy smiley faces - is the way they are, and no reflection on their partner.

[Twirly]

It might also be that those leads or follows who look “disapproving” are actually concentrating or shy, and it can be a misinterpretation on behalf of their partner (particularly if that partner maybe isn’t that confident and tends to see criticism where there isn’t any intended).

But, there are some dancers who are just plain rude and unpleasant. It’s another reflection of the wider world in the dance world – there are plenty of unpleasant people wherever you go, sadly. As for why the follows mentioned about let them get away with it – they’re probably too taken aback by the leads’ rudeness to respond at the time. I do hope that the perpetrator goes on the follows’ ignore list though! Yes, there is an imbalance of genders within partner dancing, but its not so bad that these guys should get away with it (same goes for rude follows too).

[Twirly]

I think checking your watch is a pretty unambiguous sign that you're not totally involved in the dance...

Of course people want to improve - everybody does. But I think it's also a nice thing to recognise that the entity on the end of your arm is a person, not a vehicle solely for the acceleration of your betterment.

I think JHutch was trying to suggest that the behaviour is the lead being critical of themselves and not the follow. Which actually means that they are working to give their follow an even better dance. I hardly think that's problematic.

As I've already said, there's a bit of a difference between ineffective non-verbal communication and being openly rude and critical verbally!