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Thread: The earth is flat!

  1. #41
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Anywhere near a large body of water will do the trick.
    Rent a boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Shark View Post
    To answer Ghost YES you are married to this thread and the God thread
    Can I have a divorce?
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    That's so flawed I don't know where to start.

    What you are proving there at best is that the curvature of the earth between a given point and a point on the horizon that you can see with the naked eye, is small enough as to be inperceptible by a human. How do you know it's a perfectly straight line anyway?

    And rather ironically, if you went to somewhere where hills etc are excluded, you will be able to see this quite clearly, somewhere like the Bonneville Salt Flats (I point you in the direction of the 2nd paragraph).
    I'm assuming you can make up convincing sounding arguments of your own to these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Ideally the first. The proof that "the world was flat" that was told to me was
    a) Simple - it didn't reliy on "Oh well xyz understands the maths so it's right"
    b) There's an experiement I can carry out to confirm it - like chucking bottles off a ladder ( I knew I should have chucked them off a tower )
    c) Reproducible - works every time
    d) Disprovable

    <snip>
    It can still be wrong though, a la the flat earth theory, but I'm a lot happier with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I realise I'm coming in very late to this interesting discussion, but there is one point I don't think anybody has made explicitly yet but which is important to Ghosts question of:


    An important philosophical point about science is that it can't prove anything to be absolutely true, because later a deeper understanding may prove that there are other effects that haven't been thought of previously in play.

    What it can do though, is disprove things. It can disprove things very well. When it does disprove a theory the theory either needs to be modified to take into account the new information, or scraped entirely if it is unable to do so. In principle at least all ideas about the physical world must be disprovable eventually if they are wrong. That only leaves you with the right answer.

    I can only call myself a scientist in the loosest sense. I’ve been educated in physics through University but never used it since then. One thing I can tell you though is that scientists tend to treat the tried and true theories (theorems? I never remember which is which) as absolute law, even when they are aware that further refinement is always possible and sometimes necessary for a particular task. This isn’t a criticism – they have very good reason to believe that they’re right about all but the newest or most controversial ideas.

    Philosophically speaking this is an incorrect position to hold, but for all practical purposes it’s the only one that makes sense. Functioning models may require refinement, but in order to be accurate the results of experiment must be repeatable, and so those models that hold water for any time do not do so by simple co-incidence.

    In some sense then, science is a matter of faith. However, it’s pretty hard to deny that there is something there when it has allowed us to develop so far in such a short space of time, and consistently correctly predicts behavior in well-understood situations.

  2. #42
    Registered User Crazy Shark's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Rent a boat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Can I have a divorce?
    Hmmmmm NO you started this and you'll be going all the way

  3. #43
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
    Ghost what about the 'round the world sailing' performed by ellen (I'll do this for Charity but moan every step of the way) macarthur
    Comes under the "xyz told me it's true" (except for Macarthur)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
    and what about the moon is that a flat disc in the sky?
    I'm sorely tempted to go look at the Flat Earth website again (plus I'm curious what the heck the Ice Wall is about ), but if the earth is a disc the moon can still orbit it yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
    thats the good thing about science, there is so much of a 'Grey area' that has yet to be proved and there is no definitive yes/no hence the media hates science!
    Oh I like science. We can do amazing things because of science. I just dislike "theories" being presented as "facts".

  4. #44
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Shark View Post
    Hmmmmm NO you started this and you'll be going all the way


    But they're such simple questions (ok admitedly I've been pondering them on and off for years)

    Either answer
    "No"
    or "Yes - <insert answer>"

    *deep sigh*

  5. #45
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Indeed, has Ghost got any credibility left ?
    From ÏÑÈÏÄÏÎÏÓ ÁÊÁÄÇÌÉÁ ÊÑÇÔÇÓ
    Robert Fulghum's IT WAS ON FIRE WHEN I LAY DOWN ON IT (p.172-177)

    " Are there any questions? ...........

    An offer that comes at the end of college lectures and long meetings. Said when an audience is not only overdosed with information, but when there is no time left anyhow. At times like that you sure do have questions. Like, "Can we leave now?" and "What the hell was this meeting for?" and "Where can I get a drink?"

    The gesture is supposed to indicate openness on the part of the speaker, I suppose, but if in fact you do ask a question, both the speaker and the audience will give you drop-dead looks. And some fool - some earnest idiot - always asks. And the speaker always answers. By repeating most of what he has already said.

    But if there is a little time left and there is a little silence in response to the invitation, I usually ask the most important question of all: "What is the Meaning of Life?"

    You never know, somebody may have the answer, and I'd really hate to miss it because I was too socially inhibited to ask. But when I ask, it's usually taken as a kind of absurdist move - people laugh and nod and gather up their stuff and the meeting is dismissed on that ridiculous note.

    Once, and only once, I asked that question and got a serious answer. One that is with me still.
    So occassionally I ask questions that I probably won't get a useful answer to because just maybe I might. *shrug* if I lose credibility in doing so, 'tis a small price to pay.

  6. #46
    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: The earth is flat!

    I had a look at the flat earth society's web site FAQ. It seems that anything they cannot answer is labeled as part of the conspiracy. This seems a little unpalatable to me. Some of the answers seem well considered and well thought out, but all the talk of international conspiracy sticks in the throat.

    Conspiracies are usually a way to hide or pervert thought for gain. But I can see no reason to try and fool the earth's population in this way. What is to be gained? It just doesn't add up ..... ok ..... back to my Von Daniken books

  7. #47
    Registered User SteveK's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    This was years ago mind, but basically

    Go outside
    Look to a point in the distance
    The earth should be flat between where you are and there (excluding hills etc)
    Go to that point in the distance
    Look at another point in the distance
    The earth should be flat between where you are and there (excluding hills etc)
    Go to that point in the distance
    Repeat till bored / convinced.
    If all the points are joined in a straight line then by Elucidean Geometry the Earth is flat.

    I have yet to find a place where this doesn't work.

    What is Elucidean Geometry please - I'm assuming that this must be different
    to normal geometry?


    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    That's so flawed I don't know where to start.

    What you are proving there at best is that the curvature of the earth between a given point and a point on the horizon that you can see with the naked eye, is small enough as to be inperceptible by a human. How do you know it's a perfectly straight line anyway?
    Light doesn't always travel in a straight line. Light waves can be diffracted, so just because you can see in a straight line, doesn't mean that it is a straight line.

  8. #48
    Registered User Blueshoes's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    Check out these nut jobs

    Flat Earth FAQ - Read This!
    From the web site, I love this arguement:

    Q: Why do you say there is a conspiracy?"

    A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.



    And if we're all descended from extraterrestrials then the government must be lying when they say we aren't.

    QED

  9. #49
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    Hey.. not only is the world flat.. it's borne on the back of 4 great elephants Berilia, Tubul, T'Phon and Jerakeen.
    Where'd you get the names from?

    Surely not a non-Canonical source? BLASPHEMER! INFIDEL!! etc.

  10. #50
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueshoes View Post
    From the web site, I love this arguement:

    Q: Why do you say there is a conspiracy?"

    A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.



    And if we're all descended from extraterrestrials then the government must be lying when they say we aren't.

    QED
    It is good isn't it.

    The best bit is the technique of labelling "FE" and "RE" as two separate - and by implication, equially valid - theories. It's great, it's the same technique the creationist nutters are trying to use - borrowing the hard-won credibility of science for your own loony theories.

    So, I hereby declare the "DJ is God" theory, which has equal validity to the "DJ is Not God" theory held by some other people. Hey, the DJING crowd have a right to their opinions too, you know

    Also: stop having a go a Ghost, everyone, he does Tango so therefore is infinitely superior to you bunch of plebs

  11. #51
    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I'm assuming you can make up convincing sounding arguments of your own to these.


    Go to the Bonneville salt flats
    Look to a point in the distance
    The earth should be curved between where you are and there (excluding hills etc)
    Go to that point in the distance
    Look at another point in the distance
    The earth should be curved between where you are and there (excluding hills etc)
    Go to that point in the distance
    Repeat till bored / convinced.

    What I think you're trying to argue here is how much belief you hold in common assumptions. Of course I can point you in the direction of pictures from aircraft that show the curvature of the Earth, or pictures of the Earth from space but you'll simply tell me that I didn't take them therefore how do I know they're true etc etc. So no point in arguing anything with a scientific base to you, because if you don't want to believe it's true then you won't. I mean, if you have to prove absolutely everything to yourself before believing that an assertion is true then you'd probably lead a rather strange life - how far do you take it?

    @ DJ

  12. #52
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    Light doesn't always travel in a straight line. Light waves can be diffracted, so just because you can see in a straight line, doesn't mean that it is a straight line.

    It bends near massive objects ?

    Think even near me ?

    Re speed of light, how does that act going through a worm hole ? (assuming such things exist !

  13. #53
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    What is Elucidean Geometry please - I'm assuming that this must be different to normal geometry?
    Well...two possibilities, I guess. Either it's geometry that elucidates Ghosts mad theories, or it's a typo for Euclidean geometry - which is the geometry of planes, whereas non-Euclidean geometry is the geometry of distorted space and shapes.

  14. #54
    Registered User Crazy Shark's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


    But they're such simple questions (ok admitedly I've been pondering them on and off for years)

    Either answer
    "No"
    or "Yes - <insert answer>"

    *deep sigh*
    OK for the marriage - YES
    Divorce - NO



    *sigh of relief*

  15. #55
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    It bends near massive objects ?

    Think even near me ?

    Re speed of light, how does that act going through a worm hole ? (assuming such things exist !
    Light does bend near massive objects. This is because they deform the space-time continuum so that light goes around the edge like a golf ball on an uneven green. Human beings do not deform the space-time continuum sufficiently for this to be measurable. Even a black hole or an entire galaxy will only shift photons by a tenny tiny fractions of an arc-second in a billion light years.

    Well, tell us what worm holes you are thinking of, and maybe there is an answer. The only mathematical construct I know of that makes wormholes possible are inside black holes. By definition the laws of the universe don't apply inside black holes, so the speed could be faster, slower or the same...

  16. #56
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    @ DJ
    Huh, I assume you're a DJING-er then?

    "Let's get DJIG-y with it" - my new motto.

  17. #57
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    Light doesn't always travel in a straight line. Light waves can be diffracted, so just because you can see in a straight line, doesn't mean that it is a straight line.
    If the earth was flat, then the horizon would be permanently bright in most locations at night, because of light pollution from urban areas. Note the amount of light in the Benelux region in this satellite image, for instance - that would be visible across the entire eastern seaboard of Britain on a flat earth. But it isn't.

  18. #58
    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Huh, I assume you're a DJING-er then?

    "Let's get DJIG-y with it" - my new motto.
    Nope, wot with you being a mod n'all I'm in the DJIG gang

    Is it a silent 'd' at the beginning of 'DJIG-y with it'?

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    Re: The earth is flat!

    I can't believe people are even bothering to offer any proof that the earth is not flat

  20. #60
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    Re: The earth is flat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Light does bend near massive objects. This is because they deform the space-time continuum so that light goes around the edge like a golf ball on an uneven green. Human beings do not deform the space-time continuum sufficiently for this to be measurable. Even a black hole or an entire galaxy will only shift photons by a tenny tiny fractions of an arc-second in a billion light years.

    Well, tell us what worm holes you are thinking of, and maybe there is an answer. The only mathematical construct I know of that makes wormholes possible are inside black holes. By definition the laws of the universe don't apply inside black holes, so the speed could be faster, slower or the same...
    Difraction of light is also a problem closer to "home", for example in surveying long tunnels. I'm a civil engineer and not a surveyor, but understand that diffraction becomes a significant issue for survey accuracies when you are constructing things like the Channel Tunnel. Some form of calculations are required to compensate for diffraction of the laser beams used for surveying. If anyone is particularly bothered, I'm sure I can probably find some references for this, but my university surveying notes are currently in an attic in Inverness.

    I think the best example of earth curvature is looking at the Humber Bridge when standing at Spurn Point in Humberside. From memory, you can see only the top half of the two support towers, whilst the bridge deck is below the horizon line. The water in the Humber Estuary is flat, and hence the only explanation that you can't see the bridge deck is that the earth is round.

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