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Thread: Fingertip or fuller grip?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    If you partner has a nice light follow and doesn't grip it's OK to lead with one finger. If she's a yanker or a gripper you need to use all your fingers and, in extreme circumstances, both hands
    In a private lesson with Amir I was leading him with one finger and he suggested I use a fuller grip because, if nothing else, it felt nicer for the follow. He lead me to demonstrate this and being forced to eat my own dogfood so to speak convinced me of his case. West Coast teaching tends to suggest a fuller grip as being more conducive to effective lead/follow and I see no reason why this shouldn't be equally applicable to MJ. However there seems to me to be a fashion sometimes within MJ (and I have succumbed to it in the past) to see how little physical contact can be used whilst still obtaining the desired lead. So I guess what I am interested in knowing is

    Leaders
    1) What is your usual style of leading? Fingertip or fuller grip? Why?

    Followers
    1) What is your preferred style for leaders? Fingertip or fuller grip? Why?

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    I actually go the other way from Andy. I deal with yankers or grippers by lightening the lead as much as possible, and occasionally going to a one finger lead.

    Normally though, I use my full hand for leading. My standard hand-hold is to offer my whole hand in the normal 'bracket' shape, except for the index finger which stays straight and lays along the side of my partner's hand (I'm probably not describing this very well)
    With this - I can still keep a very light connection, but communication is much easier than if I reduced it to a one-finger grip.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Normally though, I use my full hand for leading. My standard hand-hold is to offer my whole hand in the normal 'bracket' shape, except for the index finger which stays straight and lays along the side of my partner's hand (I'm probably not describing this very well)
    somebody sounds like a WCS dancer


    As for me, I have already explained some time ago, using the analogy of a small path vs a motorway : using a full hand just gives you so much more scope for communication of information.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Think this came up in a thread reasonably recently.

    I think I found out I used some kind of hooked fingertip grip along the horizontal plane (ala J&T, I think that was how it was described. I see it around a lot anyway).
    Above the horizontal plane, difficult to tell because so much adaptation is usually required. A ballroom grip pops up from time to time too

    I guess if I wanted to be hotshotty, I'd describe my grip as 'adaptive'

    I dance regularly with one lady, actually a superb dancer and follower, who often seems to work the grip towards one finger. I don't actually like it, not enough control. We have spoken about it, and in the spirit of compromise and joint cooperation.... I do exactly what she wants. Doesn't dance mirror life ?

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I actually go the other way from Andy. I deal with yankers or grippers by lightening the lead as much as possible, and occasionally going to a one finger lead.

    Normally though, I use my full hand for leading. My standard hand-hold is to offer my whole hand in the normal 'bracket' shape, except for the index finger which stays straight and lays along the side of my partner's hand (I'm probably not describing this very well)
    With this - I can still keep a very light connection, but communication is much easier than if I reduced it to a one-finger grip.
    This leader, finds the hardcore metronomic bouncers to be his my bane. I'm starting to learn the art of isolation I do declare.

    As a reasonably experienced but move limited MJer, making no claims to being other than merely competent, and having no aspirations whatsoever towards WCS and its fiddly footwork, I find that for about 80% of the time I move my forefinger out of the way and lead with my second finger, either alone or backed up by the rest. For me, the lighter the connection that can be achieved the better and more enjoyable the dance. From time to time, fingertip to fingertip, or fingertip to palm, is good. However the hook connection is usefull to initiate certain moves, and the orientation of that hook can be significant. Could that particular handhold and its variations be taken as a 'signal'; oh, horror of horrors !!

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Well, I posted this waaaaay back in May:

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey
    If the alternative to a fingertip lead is a firm grip then I agree with you here, but you don't have to have a firm grip to be using the whole of your hand to connect with your partner. The more of your hand is being connected with your partner the ''louder'' the connection is. In other words, you're more sensitive to what your partner is doing and therefore capable of laeding more subtly to an outside observer.

    It doesn't feel quite as ''cool'' as leading by the fingertips because it seems less difficult, but the more I think about it the more I'm becoming convinced that this doesn't matter. The point of a lead is to communicate intentions very clearly to your follower and having a wide connection like the one I described earlier makes a big difference in doing this.
    My opinion has only been reinforced since that time.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Leaders
    1) What is your usual style of leading? Fingertip or fuller grip? Why?
    Err, neither? I'm trying to wean myself off this left-hand leading thing.

    Seriously, yes, of course the more contact gives more information, and it's also more fun. The tricky bit is not to abuse that amount of contact by using force to substitute for technique.

    Fingertip leading is great for practice, as is no-contact leading - but it's not as much fun.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Followers
    1) What is your preferred style for leaders? Fingertip or fuller grip? Why?
    After a disastrous shoulder injury in my early dancing days, caused by a gripper leading me off beat into a pretzel, I have always preferred a smooth light and posititve lead. Years ago when I was only dancing MJ in a cerocy way, I would have said I preferred 2 fingers - mainly because it would separate the real leaders from the yankers and grippers.

    Time has moved on, two fingers are OK at times, but not really enough to communicate everything that could be communicated, especially from a WCS lead. I prefer a fuller grip now.

    With the fuller grip, for my part as a follower, I think I need to maintain the hookedness of my fingers a bit more actively so I can feel the lead and be more responsive to it. Still working on that. And the angle of my wrist...

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I actually go the other way from Andy.
    I don't advocate a one finger lead. I was just telling Vegetable/Kyron not to use that lead on women who grip or yank. I teach a fuller grip - I think Kyron must have seen people using one finger at weekenders.

    I often teach people to have a finger-tip connection in some moves, but it's usually more than one finger. I think that a one finger lead is pretentious and difficult to follow - however, I'm not going to attempt to stop a teenager from experimenting.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I don't advocate a one finger lead. I was just telling Vegetable/Kyron not to use that lead on women who grip or yank.
    Yep - got that. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I was saying I take the opposite approach for grippers / yankers, and will be far more likely to use a minimal contact (or even single finger) lead on them. I wasn't suggesting you were a one finger advocate.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that a one finger lead is pretentious and difficult to follow - however, I'm not going to attempt to stop a teenager from experimenting.
    I lead with a full hand, but normally very gentle, although it sometimes varies with follows who have done some WCS, to indicate motion and timings.

    I do however sometimes do a one finger lead, with one or 2 advanced dancers, just for the fun of it, but not for the whole song, and only to be a bit "pretentious"
    The most fun dance was where we started with the thumb to thumb, ending with the little finger to little finger, and then open palm. Not something to do on every dance, rather like double trouble, you do it now and again for variety and a bit of pretentious fun .

    One great excercise Trampy did in Aussie in a class was to go through a move with the lead having an open palm. This was to check that the follow was holder thier own weight on the step back and not "pulling" the lead and using them for thier own ballance. It ended with a step back, lead palm upwards, so if the follow took too large a step, there was a loss of connection.
    It did help and the follows in the class held their own weight better throughout the class
    to Trampy

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    We get loads of threads like this. . . .


    Question - Should I do A or B


    With out sounding too bored by it all again
    How long does it take to work out that there is no one size fits all type answer in dancing?

    We may all have preferences but they all are (or should be) changable dependent on a list of variables as random as the weather.

    Flexability aspire to that surely

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    I'm not sure there's a black and white answer here. Actually, that's not true. I am sure there is not a black and white answer (what can I say: I live in a world of grey). There are at least four basic starting handholds with each hand. Which one you are in will largely depend on the move you've just done and the move you want to do next. Knowing which handhold you need and how to get there is an important technique for leading.

    Trying to lead a doublespeed spin with anything other than 1-2 fingers in her hand is going to fail - and probably hurt. On the other hand, going into a Manhatten or any sort pretty much demands a palm to palm hold.

    For most moves, I don't use a "grip" at all. My hand and the follow's are in contact, but I don't do any actual gripping: it limits your dancing options because you have to break the grip to do most moves. There are reasons to hold on to a partner's hand: if I they keep deciding to break contact on their own initiative; if the move demands a powerful lead without her turning relative to me (eg into a pivot, lunge or the like); and it helps if you hold on during drops...

    With the better teachers, I find they tended to tell you which handhold to use and when and how to adjust the grip mid-move, particularly when the handhold is a bit unusual or counter-intuitive. Doing this well makes some moves simple (a good example is a pretzel: once you get the handholds right it's an easy move to lead and follow and variants, including double pretzels and barrel rolls are simple).
    Last edited by geoff332; 5th-November-2007 at 01:40 PM. Reason: typos: the bane of my life

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    We get loads of threads like this. . . .


    Question - Should I do A or B


    With out sounding too bored by it all again
    How long does it take to work out that there is no one size fits all type answer in dancing?

    We may all have preferences but they all are (or should be) changable dependent on a list of variables as random as the weather.

    Flexability aspire to that surely
    Dismissing inflexibility isn't very flexible is it? I was actually more interested in what people do do and why they do that than in what I should do (I know what I want to do in this respect). There may well be no one size fits all - though Jamie's flared trousers might come close - but there are ways of doing things on a dancefloor that are more likely to bring success than others so I don't see any harm in threads that do ask for advice on a preferred method is some aspect or other of the dance.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    I sort of left this post, coz I was amazed by the negativity, but I will now reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    We get loads of threads like this. . . .
    Maybe, but treat each new thread as a new thread, respect that people have a question, which may have been answered before, but maybe we did not read that thread and want to keep the forum alive, by talking about what is on our minds.
    Maybe there are new readers, certainly over the years, people have dropped out and new people have come in, so no need to refer to "old threads"



    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    With out sounding too bored by it all again
    If bored, please do not contribute.
    If not bored keep the thread alive, despite the odd negative post.

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    As a follower - I'm happy with both.

    Probably not that helpful!

    I basically depends upon the move that is being (or trying to be) excuted!

    I find it best with a mix.

    Will say though that there is nothing more off putting for me than when I'm dancing with someone who seems to insists on hardly touching me for the entire song - I just don't feel secure - the lack of communication I spose. I have to concerntrate so much more and don't seem to enjoy it as much.

    The opposite is also true.

    The best as I've said, is a mix - a clear hold when a hold is needed - light finger tips at others!

    As I said not that helpful!

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    My personal preference for hand hold is to use the whole hand. I like the followers fingers to be in the bend of the first knuckle on my hand, and for mine to be in the same place on the followers hand. I find this gives me the most comfortable and versatile connection. There is no 'grip' as such, the hands just rest against each other and generate a connection via the inside of our fingers in the case of moving away, or the back of my fingers on the followers palm in the case of moving together.

    Having said this however I will offer my hand to the followers in my preferred hand hold and allow them to choose how much of their hand they place into mine to build the connection so that they feel comfortable.

    I notice that some ladies will start with a very small amount of overlap, but as the dance progresses and they realise that there is no grip on them or pulling of their arm, they will gradually increase the amount of hand they use.

    Peter

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?



    That works for me as well!

    If I'm not sure what I do/like - how on earth is anyone else going to have a clue!

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    As a leader, I have no preference... As a follower, I have no preference...

    I use both fingertip and "whole hand" when leading and it changes every song! I think usually for slower music I tend to use a much lighter hand hold, I tend to let the music dictate what I do... Dunno, never really gave it much thought...

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    Re: Fingertip or fuller grip?

    I think that most folk equate "Fuller grip" with a more forcefull lead - which is notmally a bad thing.

    To lead my partner I use whatever happens to be touching my partner with however much contact I have. {} The more contact points and/or the larget the area in contact, then the more subtle the lead can be... it's what makes "micro blues" so much fun

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