View Poll Results: Challenging moves: when should they be taught?

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  • At the start of a routine

    6 31.58%
  • At the end of a routine

    12 63.16%
  • It doesn't matter

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Challenging routines

  1. #1
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Challenging routines

    From here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What I usually say is "part of this week's routine is a bit more challenging, but the first bit is nice and easy to get".
    Is it better to put the difficult parts at the start, or the end, of a routine?

    I can see arguments both ways, but I wonder which approach works best?

    Personally, I'd rather have the tricky stuff shown first, because then I get more chance to work on it through the routine.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    The challanging stuff in the start of the routine definately.

    My attention span is much greater, and you get more chance to work at it throughout the routine.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    From here:

    Is it better to put the difficult parts at the start, or the end, of a routine?

    I can see arguments both ways, but I wonder which approach works best?

    Personally, I'd rather have the tricky stuff shown first, because then I get more chance to work on it through the routine.
    That's fine if you're teaching experienced dancers. However, you always need to bear in mind that you've got a class containing some people who've only just moved up: you need to keep it simple for them. You've also got people in your intermediate lesson who have been dancing for years: who want something, challenging, new and interesting - at least once in a while.

    If you put the more challenging moves at the start of the routine the newly-promoted will probably get nothing from the lesson and might even drop out. If you put the easier move at the start the newly-promoted guy will at least get that. It's horrible to see a guy who didn't get the first move in the routine struggle with that all the way through the lesson It's not so bad if it's the last move he doesn't get. He's got the other two and he's only "not getting it" for about 10 minutes as opposed to not getting anything for 30 (or 40 ) minutes and giving his lady partners a hard time whenever they get him.

  4. #4
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    { snip arguments }
    Yes - as I said, that's a perfectly reasonable argument.

    Another corollary to that is that, if the class isn't getting it, then you can always drop or modify a challenging move if it's at the end - but if you start off with it, then you're stuck with it, for the whole class.

    Hmm, I think I'll add a poll to this thread.

  5. #5
    Registered User Almost an Angel's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    That's fine if you're teaching experienced dancers. However, you always need to bear in mind that you've got a class containing some people who've only just moved up: you need to keep it simple for them. You've also got people in your intermediate lesson who have been dancing for years: who want something, challenging, new and interesting - at least once in a while.

    If you put the more challenging moves at the start of the routine the newly-promoted will probably get nothing from the lesson and might even drop out. If you put the easier move at the start the newly-promoted guy will at least get that. It's horrible to see a guy who didn't get the first move in the routine struggle with that all the way through the lesson It's not so bad if it's the last move he doesn't get. He's got the other two and he's only "not getting it" for about 10 minutes as opposed to not getting anything for 30 (or 40 ) minutes and giving his lady partners a hard time whenever they get him.
    I'm with Andy on this - I tend to put the more challenging moves at the end especially in intermediate classes and will occasionally offer basic variations to link back to the start as opposed to the move.
    I may for advanced classes put the trickiest move first but this is a different audience -as Andy said they are more experienced so having more practice is a good thing rather than ending up demoralising someone in the first 10 mins of their first intermediate class.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Putting a move at the end means people do the move less often in the class. If it involves anything physically strenuous (especially lunges, drops, dips etc), then doing it less often in the class may well be a good thing. The earlier parts of the class also serve well to loosen up your muscles. Doing a lunge 20 times in a class will hurt the next day.

    On the other hand, most people's attention spans drift off after about 15-20 minutes (or in my case, 1-2 seconds), so putting a complex/difficult move earlier in the class tends to get more - and better quality - attention. And if one really has to concentrate, this tends to rob our attention later in a class.

    Finally, the moves taught at the end of a class can often end up rushed to stop the class running over. Is it better to rush through the more challenging moves, but making sure the other moves are taught well or to spend all the time on the tricky stuff, then throw in the final three moves in 10 minutes at the end?

    This final point is a conundrum. Chances are the more experienced dancers will pick up the challenging move more quickly and thus are less likely to need the extra time. They are probably the same people who can handle having three intermediate moves thrown at them in 10 minutes. On the other hand, the people who require a lot more time on more challenging moves probably also need more time on the other moves.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    In my view, it depends on what you're trying to teach.

    If you want to teach moves, and want your class to be as comfortable with as many moves as possible, then I presume putting the challenging move at the end is the low-risk approach - and may also make more business sense.

    But if you want to teach dance, then it involves some pain - and if you make the pain optional, lots of people will avoid it.

    But then again, how many MJ-ers want to learn to dance?

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    I'm with the "at the end of the routine" camp. Mostly for those who aren't dance experts, which is quite likely to be the majority of customers. If you give them something too challenging at the start, then they may become disillusioned and not come back - not what is needed (remember those male dancer retention rates!). Give them something that they can get, and it will be encouraging for them. Those who don't need this and could pick up the complex move at the start probably don't need their confidence boosting, and are likely to get the complex move more easily and if they want repetition, can then practise it in freestyle (and grab the teacher for any points that need clarification).

    DJ - for most people, MJ is a nice little hobby. They're not in it for the pain... if that's what you're looking for, am sure that you can go and find it elsewhere!

    Besides which, I assume that we are talking about "challenging moves" here rather than technique? If you're including something on technique, then I would agree that it should go at the start of the class, and then be hammered home in every single move that's taught.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    I agree with much of what is written above. I think that putting the most difficult move last is the better option. If the most difficult move is first then less experienced people wont get it, will get confused, etc. Also, when putting the moves together they will falter at the first hurdle. They may try to start again on the second move but sometimes the woman will wonder why you have stopped, etc if she is relatively inexperienced. IMO the putting the moves together bit is quite important as you have to try and do the move while other things are floating around in your head. One of the first intermediate lessons i went to (not at one of my normal venues) started with an awkward move. In fact the teacher actually said we were going to start with the difficult move that no-one could get the previous week. The rights and wrongs of this have been discussed elsewhere i think (at least it shows that the teacher is paying attention to the class). The other moves i may have got. However, when we put the moves together it went wrong straight away so i didnt have the experience of going into the easier move(s) from a different one

  10. #10
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    DJ - for most people, MJ is a nice little hobby. They're not in it for the pain... if that's what you're looking for, am sure that you can go and find it elsewhere!
    Oh, I do, I do

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Besides which, I assume that we are talking about "challenging moves" here rather than technique? If you're including something on technique, then I would agree that it should go at the start of the class, and then be hammered home in every single move that's taught.
    Well, I've not really defined it as such, but from the context "challenging" is definitely not the same as "complex". So none of this arms-flailing-everywhere-twenty-five-spins-and a-tuck nonsense, but something that, well, challenges you.

    I've said it before, but one of the things which first pulled me into AT was doing a Ceroc class, wherein the routine started with a First-Move-into-back-ochos move. It was challenging as hell to me - and modesty aside, I was probably the best leader in the class. At that point, I didn't have a clue how to lead a follower into a back ocho, I had to rely on rowing her arms, and on her knowing the routine. But I loved it, and - despite it being extremely difficult, it was also extremely popular. The class loved it, because it was such a great move, and specifically requested it again a few weeks later.

    That's what I'd call challenging, personally.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Personally I don't care as I find rountines easy. But the general concencous from what I have heard is to do the more challenging moves early so there is more time to prcatice and remember them.

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Personally I don't care as I find rountines easy. But the general concencous from what I have heard is to do the more challenging moves early so there is more time to prcatice and remember them.
    You're looking at different poll results to me then - at the time I write this, there's 2 votes for early and 4 for late.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    I suppose it depends on how you define challenging. If you mean moves that are at the limit of what you can do then i think it is best to do them either first or second. If the move is beyond your capability then it is best to have it last. Of course, this will vary across a class though

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    You're looking at different poll results to me then - at the time I write this, there's 2 votes for early and 4 for late.
    I was talking about what I have heard at venues, not the poll!

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    You're looking at different poll results to me then - at the time I write this, there's 2 votes for early and 4 for late.
    Ah, but you're forgetting that I have the strength of ten

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ah, but you're forgetting that I have the strength of ten
    Are you one of the 10 then DJ?

    Or is it because you are Forum King?

    Or both?

  17. #17
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ah, but you're forgetting that I have the strength of ten
    Ten what though?

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    Re: Challenging routines

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Ten what though?
    Ten reallly really really weak people.

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    Re: Challenging routines

    I'm for Challenging moves to be at the end of a routine.

    I find if I get a difficult move to fathom out in a class I get confused/thrown and invariably end out ditching the rest of the class and sitting out.

    As Al Murray would say (when he played Alan , Harry Hill's elder brother, in his pre Pub Landlord days!)

    "If it's too hard, I can't understand it!"

  20. #20
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Challenging routines

    Challenging moves -- should be all the way through the routine -- what's the point of a non-challenging move?

    Dips, drops, leans and back-endangering moves should *always* be at the end -- if for no other reason than you can leave the class and avoid them more easily if they are at the end -- and anyone staying *might* have warmed up enough to do them.

    SpinDr

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