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Thread: What to do with that arm.....

  1. #61
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I'm curious, whenever I spin I come to a complete stop before offering my hand to the lead, I've never had anyone complain about a loss of connection or that my dancing loses a flowing nature... .
    When I spin, usually in salsa, I try to incorporate the stopping bit into the next step, so it flows nicely - it seems to work well. In fact, that's the only really visually-impressive part of my salsa dancing, everything else looks quite boring. I think timinig the spin so that it fits into the music that way is nice.

    Then again, that's salsa, spinning is slightly different there.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I'm curious, whenever I spin I come to a complete stop before offering my hand to the lead, I've never had anyone complain about a loss of connection or that my dancing loses a flowing nature...
    As I said at the end of my post - it is just IMHO. So you come to a complete stop with your hands close to your body, you move your hand to the leaders hand (good job you know which hand your leader wants to connect with then), you establish connection and the leader leads your rock step to start the next move. All I am suggesting is that instead of having these all as seperate, discrete parts that you allow each of them to flow seamlessly together. That is what I was getting out when I wrote about flow.

    Arriving at the end of your spin with your arms and hands neatly stowed away close to your body makes it impossible for your leader to spin you and collect you in a closed position. So you have cut off that possibility for your leader. You decide which hand you are going to offer to your leader when you stop spinning so you have cut off the possibility that he could take the other hand. Because you have come to a complete stop before offering your hand you have stopped the leader from absorbing the last bits of energy from your spin and then using that energy as a prep for spinning you the opposite way. That is just another option you have denied your leader.

    I dance with a lot of beginners, and a lot of people who have been dancing a long time but still dance like beginners. I don't complain and I don't express an opinion unless asked to. I just work within the limitations of myself and my partner. If I can't make contact with my followers left hand and I get their right hand thrust at me then I lead something that uses their right hand. If they turn with their left hand tucked behind their back or elbow clamped at their side I can't collect them in closed hold, then I lead something from open hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I find that it's easier to keep myself on balance if I stop myself because if I didn't stop myself, I'd keep going, so my leader will either get bored and walk off or I'd eventually fall over...
    I have seen you and know that you can spin like a demon. I know that you would stop spinning if a) you ran out of energy to spin, b) you were about to stop fall off balance c) the music indicated that this was a good place to stop, d) the music had actually stopped. The leader, after initating your spin would wait with their hand offered at waist height ready to collect your hand until a) your hand landed into theirs b) the blood had drained from their hand and they got bored c) you had travelled so far away from you leader that you connect with someone elses leader and start dancing with them. Of course if I gave you enough energy for a single spin and you went off for 8-10 spins I would wonder why you bothered asking for someone to lead you if you were going to spend your time ignoring the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I find that follows who continue to spin until stopped by the leader (by the follow offering their hand whilst slowing down) are harder to control because they themselves seem so out of control
    Some followers do seem intent on going for multiple spins way beyond the point when they are off balance trying to regain balance while they are actually spinning. When they do actually realise that if they persist any further they are going to hit the deck then the leaders job is just to collect the wreckage as best they can to prevent the loud thud on the floor. If these multiple spins don't work when you practice them at home then they probably won't work in freestyle (assuming followers practice spins on their own at home).

    If your follower is coming out of their spin off balalnce then you cannot flow into the next part of the dance until you have averted the crisis.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    As I said at the end of my post - it is just IMHO. So you come to a complete stop with your hands close to your body, you move your hand to the leaders hand (good job you know which hand your leader wants to connect with then), you establish connection and the leader leads your rock step to start the next move. All I am suggesting is that instead of having these all as seperate, discrete parts that you allow each of them to flow seamlessly together. That is what I was getting out when I wrote about flow.
    Just a point about that, having had no other dance training, I'm "just a jiver" as fletch would put it, after a free spin I've been taught to offer my right hand to the leader and never has anyone ever attempted to take my left hand from a free spin.

    Coming out of a free spin, I don't shove my right hand into my leaders hand, I simply offer my right hand but my left hand isn't far behind... I've just done a couple of practice spins and seen what I do... I offer my right hand just in front of my left, which means you can in fact reach for the left if you so wished to have it..

    Having danced with Tatiana Mollmann (not name dropping but using her as an example as someone I'd class as a fantastic follow) when leading her into a free spin, she offered her right hand...

    I'm just slightly perplexed with your comment about knowing which hand your leader requires... Surely coming out of a spin whilst still spinning, the lead would have a much harder time trying to collect the followers left hand than their right, because when spinning clockwise (which most spins in MJ/Ceroc are) the followers right hand will arrive at you first and you'll "absorb" more energy this way..

    Arriving at the end of your spin with your arms and hands neatly stowed away close to your body makes it impossible for your leader to spin you and collect you in a closed position. So you have cut off that possibility for your leader. You decide which hand you are going to offer to your leader when you stop spinning so you have cut off the possibility that he could take the other hand. Because you have come to a complete stop before offering your hand you have stopped the leader from absorbing the last bits of energy from your spin and then using that energy as a prep for spinning you the opposite way. That is just another option you have denied your leader.
    But in your earlier post you wrote how it looks like a dalek spinning out of control when their right hand is motionless and stuck out! Now you're saying you shouldn't have your hands and arms "neatly stowed away"? When I've finished spinning, both arms unfold, It'd be crazy to just stand there with your arms folded surely?!

    You can prep a follow for a spin with very minimal effort, when you lead the step back, lead it slightly clockwise to prep for an anticlockwise return?

    I dance with a lot of beginners, and a lot of people who have been dancing a long time but still dance like beginners. I don't complain and I don't express an opinion unless asked to. I just work within the limitations of myself and my partner. If I can't make contact with my followers left hand and I get their right hand thrust at me then I lead something that uses their right hand. If they turn with their left hand tucked behind their back or elbow clamped at their side I can't collect them in closed hold, then I lead something from open hold.
    You sound like you have good leading skills and are able to cope with most typical "beginner" behaviours...

    I have heard a lot of comments on the forum regarding lead and follow and they've changed my perception a few times... I'm surprised by how many different "experienced" and "respected" leaders have different interpretations on how you'd class a follow as a very good follow... Each leader is different and each one requires a different amount of tension and each leader requires a slight change in following... You'd be surprised with the difference, I have huge respect for followers to be able to adapt to different leaders so quickly and so seamlessly...

    Therefore, if one of the "top class" follows offered me their right hand after a freespin, I wouldn't be bothered really, they've got a tough enough job as it is...

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Sorry to derail this interesting discussion, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Whenever I spin I come to a complete stop before offering my hand to the lead
    No you don't.

    Examples at 0:22 and 1:38.
    You offer your hand as you're coming to a complete stop.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Sorry to derail this interesting discussion, but...



    No you don't.

    Examples at 0:22 and 1:38.
    You offer your hand as you're coming to a complete stop.
    This is why you should never put vids of yourself online

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    As I said to Twirly in an earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    This sounds to me like you are doing everything absolutely wonderfully.

    a) the hands are neatly tucked away when spinning.
    b) They become available at waist height as you are stopping spinning. Absolutely perfect for the leader to collect should they want them
    c) if the leader doesn't collect that particulat hand then it is free to seamlessly move for the purposes of styling.

    As a leader I couldn't ask for more.
    So the spinning around like a Dalek thing is not what I am after. I am looking for the hands to become available AS the follower is finishing the last bit of their final turn. It just gives me a few more options that I wouldn't otherwise have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Just a point about that, having had no other dance training, I'm "just a jiver" as fletch would put it, after a free spin I've been taught to offer my right hand to the leader and never has anyone ever attempted to take my left hand from a free spin....
    I have become increasingly influenced by WCS. All of the basic patterns can be lead from any combinations of hand holds including ones that would seem bizzare in the MJ world like (mens hand first, ladies second) LL, RL and I often adapt WCS moves into MJ or use things like manhattans with outside passing turns using these hand holds to lead them. Using the followers left hand is allowing me to explore new things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Coming out of a free spin, I don't shove my right hand into my leaders hand, I simply offer my right hand but my left hand isn't far behind... I've just done a couple of practice spins and seen what I do... I offer my right hand just in front of my left, which means you can in fact reach for the left if you so wished to have it..
    You know it does sound to me like you are actually doing what I said in my post to twirly that I quoted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Having danced with Tatiana Mollmann (not name dropping but using her as an example as someone I'd class as a fantastic follow) when leading her into a free spin, she offered her right hand... ...
    Have a look at her dancing freestyle WCS on video. when she exits from a spin she doesn't know which hand is required and so both hand become available in the ready position. She is a quick learner and if she is dancing in an MJ envioroment she will quickly learn that the right hand is the hand that the leader might want. In MJ if we want the womans left hand at the end of a return so that we can then do a double handed move we are taught to trail our right hand from the womans shoulder, down their arm to their elbow and the woman gets the idea that we want their left hand at waist level. We are trained from the outset that the majority of follows will dance with their left arm hanging lifelessly down their side and they need lots of advance notice when we want it at waist height.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I'm just slightly perplexed with your comment about knowing which hand your leader requires... Surely coming out of a spin whilst still spinning, the lead would have a much harder time trying to collect the followers left hand than their right, because when spinning clockwise (which most spins in MJ/Ceroc are) the followers right hand will arrive at you first and you'll "absorb" more energy this way..
    And if you spin them anti clockwise their left hand would be the first to arrive. There is a move in MJ which is lifted from beginner level ballroom jive (who in turn got it from 1950s rock and roll). You start RR and free spin the woman clockwise, then you collect LL and spin her back anticlockwise. This move just doesn't work in MJ (except in the lesson where everyone knows what is coming) because when you get to the point of trying to get the LL hold for the anticlockwise turn and the followers left hand is dangling by her thigh. You can't do this move if you complete the first turn, stop, offer your hand and then try to restart because the absorption of the energy from the clockwise turn IS the prep for the anticlockwise turn.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    But in your earlier post you wrote how it looks like a dalek spinning out of control when their right hand is motionless and stuck out! Now you're saying you shouldn't have your hands and arms "neatly stowed away"? When I've finished spinning, both arms unfold, It'd be crazy to just stand there with your arms folded surely?!...
    See above. What I am asking for is that the arms unfold AS the final part for the final spin is occuring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    You can prep a follow for a spin with very minimal effort, when you lead the step back, lead it slightly clockwise to prep for an anticlockwise return?...
    Indeed. This form of lead is used a lot in Lindy Hop to lead the follower to mirror your actions rather than come towards the leaders postion. It is also used in Balboa to lead your partner into an anti clockwise turn whil you collect into close hold before the turn can be fully completed. It should also be used for the MJ beginners move known as "side to side". In practice people do it for the first occurance of the side to side and then just tap their feet together while still in side to side position instead of rotating their bodies to face their partner.

    If you lead an MJ follow into a sway or a neck break then they have been trained to make their left hand available. If it is then you can take it an lead something as a variation, if it isn't then you have a plain vanilla exit. I would just like the avalability of the left hand to be the default situation in MJ rather than the specially trained exception.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    You sound like you have good leading skills and are able to cope with most typical "beginner" behaviours...
    One has to be able to cope with beginner behaviours. They are beginners after all. Most are a bit wobbly when they spin, a bit noodle armed, or go off in surprising directions for no understandable reasons. They are beginners after all. While you are dancing with them you are their guide and to some extent, protector. However some people seem to remain beginners for an incredibly long time but even with very good follows it sometimes goes a bit pear shaped either because I lose the plot or they do and we as dance partners avert the crisis together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I have heard a lot of comments on the forum regarding lead and follow and they've changed my perception a few times... I'm surprised by how many different "experienced" and "respected" leaders have different interpretations on how you'd class a follow as a very good follow... Each leader is different and each one requires a different amount of tension and each leader requires a slight change in following... You'd be surprised with the difference, I have huge respect for followers to be able to adapt to different leaders so quickly and so seamlessly......
    I have a similar huge respect for leaders that can adapt so readily. My partner (who also leads in classes) wonders how leads cope with the different follows that each have their own characteristics as well as leading moves and musicality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Therefore, if one of the "top class" follows offered me their right hand after a freespin, I wouldn't be bothered really, they've got a tough enough job as it is...
    I would too. If they also had their left hand available I might think of something to lead using that hand.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Excellent posts Chef, rep on it's way may I request a dance if you're going to utopia tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    No you don't.

    Examples at 0:22 and 1:38.
    You offer your hand as you're coming to a complete stop.
    So I do, but may I also point out:

    Added: 23 June 2007, it's now November... I'd like to think I've changed considerably since then...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    This is why you should never put vids of yourself online
    I didn't, Lee did

    I am quite impressed with myself though, I do in fact offer both hands to my lead... So glad I didn't just make that up, it's on video and everything!

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Added: 23 June 2007, it's now November... I'd like to think I've changed considerably since then...
    Do you have a vid? The most obvious thing I could look at was , but I suspect it's not a particularly good example of what you had in mind.

    But if I look at that clip, then it seems to me you offer the hand as you come to a stop in the first spin, and after coming to a stop on the second spin.

    I have to say, I much prefer how it looks in the first version. I think there's always a danger that spinning (particularly multiple spins) can look like it 'interrupts' the dance. That is, you're dancing together, to the music, and then you stop dancing to do a spin, and then you start again. If you literally stop at the end of the spin, I think that interruption effect is near unavoidable.

    [All respect for putting up any videos of yourself dancing, however. Way better than anything I could do...]

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Excellent posts Chef, rep on it's way may I request a dance if you're going to utopia tomorrow?
    I would be delighted to dance with you Jamie. Unfortunately it will have to wait a while as I am going to Franco Camber weekend instead of Utopia this weekend. I should be at the next Utopia though if you go to that one.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    I think that for an excelent follow, hand offered when coming out of a spin is generally the hand closest to the lead: someone who over spins a bit and is very fluid will be more comfortable offering the left, someone who slows and stops will probably offer the right.

    Beginners tend to stick the right hand out as the right foot goes back to regain their balance; resulting on some twisting and probably appearing even more off-balance than they are.

    In Jamie's case, I think that he actually finishes the spin a fraction before the next beat so he has time to offer or take or style or whatever and have it impact with the next beat.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I didn't, Lee did
    Yeah, tell me about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I am quite impressed with myself though,
    Really?

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Do you have a vid? The most obvious thing I could look at was , but I suspect it's not a particularly good example of what you had in mind.

    But if I look at that clip, then it seems to me you offer the hand as you come to a stop in the first spin, and after coming to a stop on the second spin.

    I have to say, I much prefer how it looks in the first version. I think there's always a danger that spinning (particularly multiple spins) can look like it 'interrupts' the dance. That is, you're dancing together, to the music, and then you stop dancing to do a spin, and then you start again. If you literally stop at the end of the spin, I think that interruption effect is near unavoidable.

    [All respect for putting up any videos of yourself dancing, however. Way better than anything I could do...]
    Unfortunately, I don't have a recent enough video of myself...

    As per the spinning thing, don't want to start a debate on spinning, I spin because I love to spin, I only do multispins to that extent with my friend Caz, partly because no one can spin me as well as she can, and because I agree with you, it interrupts the dance etc.. I always keep my spins to one beat when I'm with a partner I don't know, two beats at a push, or I spin musically.

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    Re: What to do with that arm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    No you don't.

    Examples at 0:22 and 1:38.
    You offer your hand as you're coming to a complete stop.
    I'm sure I noticed something in Jamie's partner's pocket. The picture is a bit blurred, but it looked surprisingly like a can of female attractant spray

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