What to do with that arm.....

[Caro]

Am trying to visualise this, and must have something wrong as in my mind it looks awkward as you'd have to have your wrist bent at a 90 degree angle to make it face that wall on the right hand side. What have I got wrong?

think about holding a box in your arms, from the sides of the box: your palms should be looking at each other (through the box, obviously). (Elbow is bent 90 degrees)

[Andy McGregor]

I knew this wouldn't last long.

I suggest instead of having your (left) palm facing down, you make it face the wall on your right hand side. That way you cannot let your hand droop, sorted.

The best way to stop your hand drooping is to not droop it. I think the wrist needs to be fairly straight to look comfortable and unaffected. Caro's method must work for her, but I think it introduces a kink at the wrist and, when I do it sat here at my desk it looks like I'm telling the cat not to get on my lap.

The next thing you'll be telling me is that you don't want our little family to have a cat

[Caro]

The best way to stop your hand drooping is to not droop it.

that's easy to say The fact is, when ythe palm is facing down, people tend to droop the hand. Why make it hard to look good when there is a simplier way?

Caro's method must work for her, but I think it introduces a kink at the wrist

no, no kink. I'm obviously not explaining this well so I'll try again:
talking about your left arm.
the part of your arm which contain the humerus bone is going down straight on your side.
Elbow is bent 90 deg to make your forearm (the bit that contains cubitus and radius)parallel to the floor.
Now rotate your wrist (as a consequence your hand and forearm rotate) to your left, your thumb is up, pinky is down and palm is facing the wall on your right. This is not uncomfortable. In that position, drooping your hand requires you to actually want to droop it, it's not confortable at all. Hence why it's the preferred way (not just by me).

[Andy McGregor]

that's easy to say The fact is, when ythe palm is facing down, people tend to droop the hand. Why make it hard to look good when there is a simplier way?



no, no kink. I'm obviously not explaining this well so I'll try again:
talking about your left arm.
the part of your arm which contain the humerus bone is going down straight on your side.
Elbow is bent 90 deg to make your forearm (the bit that contains cubitus and radius)parallel to the floor.
Now rotate your wrist (as a consequence your hand and forearm rotate) to your left, your thumb is up, pinky is down and palm is facing the wall on your right. This is not uncomfortable. In that position, drooping your hand requires you to actually want to droop it, it's not confortable at all. Hence why it's the preferred way (not just by me).

Ah, I've got it now. I still prefer the palm down thing as it is easier for the guy to engage the lady's hand on anti-clockwise turns. But I can't see anything wrong with what Caro does.

Phew! Averted another tiff

Does this mean we can have a kitten?

[Twirly]

Still not getting it.

I usually hold my left arm at about my waist height, with the elbow bent at 90 degrees, in front of me with the palm of my hand facing my stomach, and inch or two away from it. If I was to have my palm facing the right hand wall, I’d either have to bend my wrist so it was 90 degrees away from my body, or move lower arm so that it was pointing away from my body (the holding a box analogy).

Think I’ll have to ask you next time I see you!

[Connie]

Not 100% sure I am visualising this correctly either.

Does any of you dance around Sutton/Esher or Croydon? Would be bril to see it with my own little eyes.

[Andy McGregor]

Still not getting it.

I usually hold my left arm at about my waist height, with the elbow bent at 90 degrees, in front of me with the palm of my hand facing my stomach, and inch or two away from it. If I was to have my palm facing the right hand wall, I’d either have to bend my wrist so it was 90 degrees away from my body, or move lower arm so that it was pointing away from my body (the holding a box analogy).

Think I’ll have to ask you next time I see you!

I think the whole wall thing was a red-herring. Caro's anatomical description worked for me. It sounds like Caro does the same as Twirly. I think it's probably a useful device if you can't stop your hand drooping with the palm down but it does look a bit like a karate chop or somebody with a touch of tummy-ache...

.. although I'm sure it looks lovely when Caro and Twirly do it

[Chef]

Still not getting it.

I usually hold my left arm at about my waist height, with the elbow bent at 90 degrees, in front of me with the palm of my hand facing my stomach, and inch or two away from it. If I was to have my palm facing the right hand wall, I’d either have to bend my wrist so it was 90 degrees away from my body, or move lower arm so that it was pointing away from my body (the holding a box analogy).

Have your forearm pointing in the same direction as your chest (think robot or if slighlty older, thunderbirds puppet). If your forearm is pointed across your body, so your hand is in front of your navel and only an inch or two from it then it will not slip naturally into your leaders hand as you turn. With your hand being only an inch or two from your stomach then your leader runs the risk of poking you in the stomach as he has to extend his hand to get your hand.

If you stand with your partner with a double hand hold so that your forearms are parallel to the floor, elbows slightly away from your body, and your forearm point the same way as your chest, then disconnect from each other and step away without letting your hands or forearms from dropping then this would be a good starting position. Your hands are easily available to your partner and any arm styling can flow gracefully from this position.

By all means place your hands gracefully in front of your navel while spinning but as you complete your turn your hands would need to come out into this ready position. As your hands come out into this ready position they will also have the effect of scrubbing some of the speed off of your turn to make it easier to come to a rest facing your partner. Your partner will able to collect your hand in his, quite naturally, and absorb any remaining energy from your turn, which should also prepare you for any turn back the other way.

[Andy McGregor]

Does any of you dance around Sutton/Esher or Croydon? Would be bril to see it with my own little eyes.

I think Caro dances a safe distance away from the Home Counties. If I'm right, all you need to do is place the palm of your left hand over your belly button (goes all dreamy at the thought of Connie's belly button ) and simply take your hand off your belly, keeping your forearm parallel to the floor, without changing the angle of your hand, hold your hand a few inches from your tummy (goes dreamy again ).

[Twirly]

Thanks Chef - think I've got what you're saying. I was thinking more about where my hand is when I'm spinning/it's not being used at all (and not for the "styling" I attempt). Will have a look at what I actually do when coming out of a spin.

The only thing is, won't it get in the way sometimes if it's permanently stuck out in front of you (which is what I'm visualising from your description)? Can't think that I've ever seen anyone else dancing with their arm out in front of them...

[Andy McGregor]

I think the whole wall thing was a red-herring.

Now I think about it, Caro's wall thing is probably not a red herring if her forearm is not in front of her but at her side. Now I'm thinking Dalek.

[Lou]

The only thing is, won't it get in the way sometimes if it's permanently stuck out in front of you (which is what I'm visualising from your description)? Can't think that I've ever seen anyone else dancing with their arm out in front of them...

I think I do the same as you, Twirly. I like to keep my arms more tucked in, so that they don't whack anyone. I think it works, in general. Sometimes, the spare arm goes out to the side, or up, just as a styling point. Also, I try to keep my fingers (sorry - is it OK to talk about fingers on a thread about arms - or will this get split? ) curved, so that my hands look "pretty". If course, this is only when I remember.

[Caro]

Still not getting it.

I usually hold my left arm at about my waist height, with the elbow bent at 90 degrees, in front of me with the palm of my hand facing my stomach, and inch or two away from it. If I was to have my palm facing the right hand wall, I’d either have to bend my wrist so it was 90 degrees away from my body, or move lower arm so that it was pointing away from my body (the holding a box analogy).

ok I think I know what you mean. In my description, the forearm is perpendicular to your body (the holding box analogy - imagine the box is the width of you).
Now, to be honest, if you maintain that position too rigidly, you'll look like a robot.
But as Chef said, with the palm facing your stomach, it's not the easiest of place for the guy to get hold of it. So I would start with my position as described, and hold it that way loosely. There may be times when my palm is facing more towards my stomach than towards the right wall. That's ok. Similarly my fingers are not in straight extension - I just leave them to curl naturally.

[Andy McGregor]

Similarly my fingers are not in straight extension - I just leave them to curl naturally.

I'm sure that, as Lou says below, it all looks very "pretty".

Also, I try to keep my fingers curved, so that my hands look "pretty". If course, this is only when I remember.

p.s. I rather like the idea of a Siamese kitten. What do you think?

[Caro]

I'm sure that, as Lou says below, it all looks very "pretty".

Robd could tell you I'm a very pretty lady indeed

p.s. I rather like the idea of a Siamese kitten. What do you think?

For you ? I'm thinking more of that.

[fletch]

I find the Saturday night feaver aproch works for me ....see my Avatar. failing that I flaten my hair with my had that small men have fluffed up

thinking about it they dont have to be small

[Chef]

The only thing is, won't it get in the way sometimes if it's permanently stuck out in front of you (which is what I'm visualising from your description)? Can't think that I've ever seen anyone else dancing with their arm out in front of them...

Yes it will get in the way if the arm is permanently stuck out in front of you. I have seen one or two people doing this and it did rather look like a Dalek spinning out of control. That is why they need to be tucked away neatly when you are spinning but need to become available as you are slowing down to end your spin.

I am not going to tell anyone that one way is more stylish than another because quite frankly it is a matter of personal taste. I understand that ballet dancers like to turn with their arms in a position that is like they are holding a beach ball in their arms with their hands just in front and below thier navel. I have seen Tatiana Mollman doing fab spins with her hand in a postion that almost looks llike she has both hand in her trouser pockets. You could even spin with both arms above your head. Whatever you think looks nice and tidy is great as long as you don't clout your partner or other people on your way around. When you want to stop you need to offer your hand to your partner so that you can reconnect. Since your partner is likely to be offering his hand at waist height it would seem the most logical place to offer yours.

The big thing is to move your hand(s) from their tidy or expressive spinning position to your reconnection position AS you are completing your final turn. If you turn and stop and only then offer your hand your lead has no chance to absorb any remaining spin and establish connection in the process. If you come to a complete stop, reconnect and start moving again your dance would proably lose a flowing nature and could have the feeling of stuttering along.

As always this is all just IMHO

[Andy McGregor]

Robd could tell you I'm a very pretty lady indeed

Now you're trying to use peer group pressure to get me to ask you on a date

[Twirly]

I am not going to tell anyone that one way is more stylish than another because quite frankly it is a matter of personal taste. I understand that ballet dancers like to turn with their arms in a position that is like they are holding a beach ball in their arms with their hands just in front and below their navel.

That could explain why I do things a certain way – 8 years of ballet as a child (then jazz as a teenager), even if it was a long time ago. Now it's a deflated beachball! It’s the reason I knew how to spot when I started Ceroc.

When you want to stop you need to offer your hand to your partner so that you can reconnect. Since your partner is likely to be offering his hand at waist height it would seem the most logical place to offer yours.

The big thing is to move your hand(s) from their tidy or expressive spinning position to your reconnection position AS you are completing your final turn. If you turn and stop and only then offer your hand your lead has no chance to absorb any remaining spin and establish connection in the process. If you come to a complete stop, reconnect and start moving again your dance would probably lose a flowing nature and could have the feeling of stuttering along.

As always this is all just IMHO

Sure – with the right hand I do. That one is most definitely in the process of being extended out in front when I come out of the spin (though will analyse tomorrow night where it is during the spin as I can’t think right now). I guess that what I was talking about earlier is what I do with my left hand when it’s not required by the lead and I’m not attempting some sort of styling with it.

Am curious about the “absorb any remaining spin” bit above. When I first started and wasn’t very good at controlling the spinning, I did find myself using the lead to stop myself if I’d been put into a very hard or fast spin by the lead (I was OK if the lead was gentle, but I didn’t have the technique then to control my own spinning speed – now I can go round, mostly, at a speed that I dictate, not the lead and so am more controlled). I suspect that it made me harder to dance with – though serves them right for being a bit rough! How much absorption should there be and how does it assist the connection? (Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I guess that it’s relevant to style and technique.)

[Chef]

Sure – with the right hand I do. That one is most definitely in the process of being extended out in front when I come out of the spin (though will analyse tomorrow night where it is during the spin as I can’t think right now). I guess that what I was talking about earlier is what I do with my left hand when it’s not required by the lead and I’m not attempting some sort of styling with it.

Only extending the right hand as you exit the spin sort of assumes that your leader ia always going to want the right hand. Most of the time this is true but by not having the left hand available sort of makes the decision for the leader. I am learning WCS and am learning lots of things that can be done with all sorts of hand hold combinations that are not common to MJ. Even in MJ if the leader returns you and wants to go to a double hand hold he starts the process of collecting your left hand as you go around by letting his hand run down the outside of your upper arm, down your forearm and down to your hand. If your hand stays resolutely in front of your navel and the man has to go searching from it and dig it out of that postion it just makes it that much more difficult for the leader.

Am curious about the “absorb any remaining spin” bit above. When I first started and wasn’t very good at controlling the spinning, I did find myself using the lead to stop myself if I’d been put into a very hard or fast spin by the lead (I was OK if the lead was gentle, but I didn’t have the technique then to control my own spinning speed – now I can go round, mostly, at a speed that I dictate, not the lead and so am more controlled). I suspect that it made me harder to dance with – though serves them right for being a bit rough! How much absorption should there be and how does it assist the connection? (Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I guess that it’s relevant to style and technique.)

How much spin you have to absorb depends on many things. If the leader gives too much energy to the follower and/or the follower cannot dissapate that then the leader has more energy to absorb. Some followers put a lot of their own energy into spins when they feel a free spin coming along and this can sometimes catch the leader off guard - the leader puts what they think is enough energy into the lead for the desired outcome and suddenly there there is all this extra energy being put in by the follower. The leader can then either let the follower contiune spinning until the energy has disipated and then absorb what is left or stop the spin early and absorb more energy. Of course, if the follower keeps their hands tucked out of the way when spinning the leader doesn't have the option of connecting with the follower and absorbing the energy of the spin. So the follower makes their hands unavailable until they are ready to stop spinning and then makes them available for the leader to absorb the remaining energy.

So how much energy should the leader absorb? All that remains and it should be done smoothly so as not to upset the followers balance. Sometimes this is a lot of energy and sometimes it is the lightest touch. In order to absorb this energy the arms of both the leader and follower have to have muscle tone and this is exactly what is required for connection. Floppy arms cannot transmit connection. Indeed if you have a really rough leader then letting your arms go floppy is the best way to avoid getting your arms damaged.

Leaders will provide sufficient lead in order to have the desired effect. If the follower is insensitive to lead then the leader makes the lead big. If the leader is providing a rough and big lead then the follower becomes less sensitve to the lead. The vicious circle begins.

So you must make both of your hands available in time for the start of a move although the leader may not choose to take the hand at that time. By not having a hand available you have cut of some of your leaders options. Never the less the "ready" position is an ideal starting point for any arm styling once you understand that your leader doesn't require it for the next part of the move.