Teaching - pet hates

[Andy McGregor]

when the teacher overruns by more than 10 minutes and you aren't in the class, but waiting to freestyle.

I don't usually over run by more than 10 minutes - very rarely in the beginners and quite often in the intermediate. However, what bugs me is getting buttonholed in the loo by one of the people who was waiting for the start of freestyle when I have run over by 5 or 10 minutes. My answer is that we are a dance class first and foremost. We wouldn't exist if we didn't teach people how to dance. Therefore, people who can dance should be patient if we have to run over a bit to teach other people how to dance. What bugs me even more is that the people who sit out, watch the lesson and then start doing panto watch tapping when you're a few minutes over are the people who could do with a lesson and are also the people who I have to have a quiet word with because they do dangerous drops or lifts in freestyle

[Andy McGregor]

I wondered that, too. I was originally taught that way, and I thought it explained all the ladies I knew who anticipated.

HOWEVER, it turns out that they'll anticipate anyway - even when taught by just the one teacher.

I think it depends. I find it quite effective if the ladies are told that they should wait for the lead and not anticipate. But I think Lou is right, telling the ladies how to do the move is at the root of the problem and that could be taught by one teacher or two.

[drathzel]

The women get taught in exctly the same way as the men and are told when to step forward when to pivot, turn, etc. You end up with a group of ladies who anticipate every move

i always emphasise the lead part of the move and i always tell the ladies to stand wait and look pretty until they feel the lead. The problem though arises when people dont listen/are afraid of hurting their partners feelings/help their partner. This breeds anticipation not necessarily how the teacher teaches.

However if the teacher doesnt teach the men to lead and ladies to follow how are they meant to know how to do it. Its a double edged sword. Some ladies will always anticipate some of the time

[johnnyman]

I think teachers, like those they are teaching, should always be looking for refreshing ways to teach the classes. In a franchised situation like Ceroc, there always seems to be a common denomination of traditional teaching skills, whereas from time to time, there should be a review of how something is being taught as well as why. It should be about the methods as well as the moves.

best
johnnyman

[Franck]

I think teachers, like those they are teaching, should always be looking for refreshing ways to teach the classes. In a franchised situation like Ceroc, there always seems to be a common denomination of traditional teaching skills, whereas from time to time, there should be a review of how something is being taught as well as why. It should be about the methods as well as the moves.

For the last 15 years I have taught Ceroc, there have been many reviews of the ways we teach the moves and the format of classes. Each generation of teachers have had the benefit of previous generations and have been able to share that knowledge via teachers updates. In the last couple of years, the Beginners moves were all reviewed and the beginners classes changed to reflect new ideas and teaching concepts.

Being consistent is not the same as being static.

[Astro]

I don't usually over run by more than 10 minutes - very rarely in the beginners and quite often in the intermediate. However, what bugs me is getting buttonholed in the loo by one of the people who was waiting for the start of freestyle when I have run over by 5 or 10 minutes. My answer is that we are a dance class first and foremost. We wouldn't exist if we didn't teach people how to dance. Therefore, people who can dance should be patient if we have to run over a bit to teach other people how to dance. What bugs me even more is that the people who sit out, watch the lesson and then start doing panto watch tapping when you're a few minutes over are the people who could do with a lesson and are also the people who I have to have a quiet word with because they do dangerous drops or lifts in freestyle

Before you get into the never ending foot debate, can I just reply to the above?


While I agree with your post above, teachers should be aware that they can lose their great leads on weeknights, by consistantly over running.

It's usually only 90 minutes advertised freestyle time anyway and if 20 minutes is lopped off, folks will think "Is it worth going just for an hour?"

With just beginners and intermediates at the freestyle, the club can become lack lustre.

[Andy McGregor]

Before you get into the never ending foot debate, can I just reply to the above?


While I agree with your post above, teachers should be aware that they can lose their great leads on weeknights, by consistantly over running.

It's usually only 90 minutes advertised freestyle time anyway and if 20 minutes is lopped off, folks will think "Is it worth going just for an hour?"

With just beginners and intermediates at the freestyle, the club can become lack lustre.

Where did 20 minutes come from?

The night I most often over run is the night our freestyle goes on 'til 11.30pm. My lesson is timetabled to run 'til 9.30pm and sometimes lasts until 9.40pm if it took a while for the class to get something in the lesson - or if I've talked for too long

At the class that goes on 'til 11.30pm both of the lessons are busy. Out of 120ish, we get no more than 10 people who turn up for the freestyle only. And they just think they're good, but most of them haven't done a lesson for years, have certainly never done my lessons, are bouncy with a limited repertoire of moves, relying on lifts and drops to impress the ladies

[bigdjiver]

...And please don't correct my spelling of hippocritical.

I would not
I will, however, report you to the RSPCA.
Otherwise to the goodies.

[StokeBloke]

When I first started dancing in the Midlands the teachers would often 'drop' a return from a move we'd just been taught to make it fit better into that night's routine. It used to confuse the cr@p out of this excited little bunny!!

Now I'm a hotshot I don't do classes so I'm ok

[Martin]

I don't usually over run by more than 10 minutes - very rarely in the beginners and quite often in the intermediate. However, what bugs me is getting buttonholed in the loo by one of the people who was waiting for the start of freestyle when I have run over by 5 or 10 minutes. My answer is that we are a dance class first and foremost. We wouldn't exist if we didn't teach people how to dance. Therefore, people who can dance should be patient if we have to run over a bit to teach other people how to dance. What bugs me even more is that the people who sit out, watch the lesson and then start doing panto watch tapping when you're a few minutes over are the people who could do with a lesson and are also the people who I have to have a quiet word with because they do dangerous drops or lifts in freestyle

This is something we will maybe have to agree to disagree on

I see running over time simply as very unprofessional.
You have stated the length of the class, in this way you have made a contract between you and the customer. Same in the corporate world as well as the dance world. No exceptions.

Any teacher who cannot manage his or her own time.... I would avoid.
It does not matter if I were joining in the lesson or waiting for it to finish... The contract is made, then broken through a lack of ability by the instructor.

Black and white in my book.

[David Bailey]

I don't usually over run by more than 10 minutes - very rarely in the beginners and quite often in the intermediate. However, what bugs me is getting buttonholed in the loo by one of the people who was waiting for the start of freestyle when I have run over by 5 or 10 minutes. My answer is that we are a dance class first and foremost. We wouldn't exist if we didn't teach people how to dance.

I'm with Martin on this one, I think. Overrunning classes are one of my pet hates also.

If people come for the freestyle - and let's face it, lots of people do just come for the freestyle - then they're paying for (say) 90 minutes of dancing. Which isn't actually a lot of time when you think about it - enough for a couple of dozen dances, basically. Barely enough to work up a sweat.

If you overrun by 10 minutes, then you're depriving people of that amount of freestyle time - taking (say) 2-3 dances away from them.

I don't believe that any regular MJ classes are so wonderful that they demand that extra 10 minutes - we're just talking about another move, presumably. So why not keep to the times, no matter what, and if necessary only teach 3 moves instead of 4? It's not as if you have to answer to Borg Central or anything

[MartinHarper]

At the class that goes on 'til 11.30pm both of the lessons are busy. Out of 120ish, we get no more than 10 people who turn up for the freestyle only.

You might look at how many of the remaining 110 turn up for the freestyle mainly, and view the class as more of an ice-breaker/social/warm-up/reminder. One way of judging this is seeing whether folks arrive on time. Another way is to see how much attention they are paying to what you're saying.

[Lou]

You might look at how many of the remaining 110 turn up for the freestyle mainly, and view the class as more of an ice-breaker/social/warm-up/reminder. One way of judging this is seeing whether folks arrive on time.

I don't think that would be conclusive evidence, Martin. They might be late for any number of reasons - such as traffic, deciding what shoes to wear, posting last minute nonsense on the Forum, etc.

Another way is to see how much attention they are paying to what you're saying.

Again - not entirely foolproof. They may not be paying attention because they're wondering what foot to step back on, for instance.

Perhaps you could get them to fill in a survey?

[Andy McGregor]

This is something we will maybe have to agree to disagree on

I see running over time simply as very unprofessional.
You have stated the length of the class, in this way you have made a contract between you and the customer. Same in the corporate world as well as the dance world. No exceptions.

Any teacher who cannot manage his or her own time.... I would avoid.
It does not matter if I were joining in the lesson or waiting for it to finish... The contract is made, then broken through a lack of ability by the instructor.

Black and white in my book.

You are right, if I'd promised to finish at 9.30pm. On most of my printed literature I say that the lesson starts at 9pm and lasts about half an hour with freestyle starting straight afterwards - on re-reading this is a bit vague. The mistake I think I'm making is saying that the price is £4 after 9.30pm. The next time I update things I will make suitable amendments. It will say something like. "Intermdiate lesson starts promptly at 9pm and will usually finish at 9.30pm and will never run later than 9.40pm".

At a dance class I think the big print part of my "contract" is to teach people to dance. If, one week, the routine is a bit more complex and needs a 40 minute intermediate lesson I believe that is what should happen. Therefore I need a bit of flexibility to be able to do that and manage people's expectation. I just need to word my "contract" to make that clear. And I need to change my pricing to say "Freestyle Only - £4".

[Andy McGregor]

I'm with Martin on this one, I think. Overrunning classes are one of my pet hates also.

If people come for the freestyle - and let's face it, lots of people do just come for the freestyle - then they're paying for (say) 90 minutes of dancing. Which isn't actually a lot of time when you think about it - enough for a couple of dozen dances, basically. Barely enough to work up a sweat.

If you overrun by 10 minutes, then you're depriving people of that amount of freestyle time - taking (say) 2-3 dances away from them.

I don't believe that any regular MJ classes are so wonderful that they demand that extra 10 minutes - we're just talking about another move, presumably. So why not keep to the times, no matter what, and if necessary only teach 3 moves instead of 4?

I do only teach 3 moves in the intermediate. But sometimes a move needs a bit more teaching and I'd like the flexibility to be able to give more time to that teaching. I think my change to what I say/offer will make this clear.

On the subject of over-running, I'm pretty strong on keeping it to no more than 10 minutes. However, I went to a Ceroc Surrey night in Crawley a while back and the intermediate lesson finished at 9.57pm. As I'd arrived at 9.25pm I thought it wasn't worth joining in with the lesson because it was about to finish. If I'd known it was going to last another half hour I would have joined in. Another lesson about communication, I suppose.

It's not as if you have to answer to Borg Central or anything

[Andy McGregor]

You might look at how many of the remaining 110 turn up for the freestyle mainly, and view the class as more of an ice-breaker/social/warm-up/reminder. One way of judging this is seeing whether folks arrive on time. Another way is to see how much attention they are paying to what you're saying.

I thought this might be the case and I tried a little experiment about a year ago. Once a month I had a megafreestyle night. We still had the beginners and consolidation but missed out the intermediate altogether giving people almost 3 hours of freestyle. I had loads of people telling me that they came for the intermediate lessons and could they have them every week - especially as they were still paying the same entry price. On the other hand, I only get a handful of people who come for the freestyle only - and they only pay me £4!

[Andy McGregor]

"Intermdiate lesson starts promptly at 9pm and will usually finish at 9.30pm and will never run later than 9.40pm".

Although I will try to use correct spelling and grammar

[David Bailey]

You are right, if I'd promised to finish at 9.30pm. On most of my printed literature I say that the lesson starts at 9pm and lasts about half an hour with freestyle starting straight afterwards - on re-reading this is a bit vague. The mistake I think I'm making is saying that the price is £4 after 9.30pm. The next time I update things I will make suitable amendments. It will say something like. "Intermdiate lesson starts promptly at 9pm and will usually finish at 9.30pm and will never run later than 9.40pm".

Ooh! I just remembered - another pet hate is being charged class fees when I get there a few minutes early for the freestyle

Chesham on Fridays used to do this - possibly they still do. OK, it was only £1.50 extra, but it adds up. I think it used to be class fees up until 9.30pm. So as the class often also overran until 9.45, you were paying more money, to have less freestyle dancing.

At a dance class I think the big print part of my "contract" is to teach people to dance. If, one week, the routine is a bit more complex and needs a 40 minute intermediate lesson I believe that is what should happen.

Personally I think "complex routine" and "teach people to dance" is contradictory... Teaching a more complex routine won't teach people more, it'll confuse them more.

But I'm sure you meant "more difficult"

[Andy McGregor]

But I'm sure you meant "more difficult"

What I usually say is "part of this week's routine is a bit more challenging, but the first bit is nice and easy to get".

[bigdjiver]

If the teacher has to extend the intermediate class because the class have not "got it" it is because the teacher is trying to teach too much for the level of the class.

Teachers, come ending time, how many are sitting out waiting to dance?
Make a guess at what percentage of your class would rather be dancing.
How many of those not in the class are beginners, perhaps coming from a review class, packing up to go home because they have decided they cannot do it, or that nobody will want to dance with them?
How will they find out different if they go home?
How many will not return?
How many of those sitting out are visitors, perhaps from afar, who have come to dance, who may not be able to stay to the end, and are losing a big percentage of their dancing time if the class over runs?

I believe that Ceroc have made a costly mistake in teaching 4 moves in the intermediate. It is too big a step up for a beginner, and we lose people unecessarily. 4 intermediate moves are too much for many dancers too, and we lose skills because of that. I believe it encourages class over run, and we lose beginners and visitors because of it.