Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

[Andy McGregor]

How do you define a clear lead? Do you use a firm lead?

Firstly, in the open hand hold you can only lead clearly if you are leading the lady forwards, backwards into a turn or a pivot. If you are leading the lady across in a diagonal you are leading the lady to pivot and travel forwards when all you require to do the manspin is for the lady to step forwards. This means that you lead is ambiguous "do you want me to pivot, turn or travel forwards". If your lead is clear it will lead only one thing in the first part of the manspin - that is to travel forwards down their slot. Try leading just that thing and getting out of the lady's way - get the lady you are practicing with to tell you if she feels like she's being let straight forwards or being turned a bit as well as led forwards.

Remember, a lead is simply an invitation. It is not strong or any other measure of power, it is the minimum required to indicate to the lady that you would like her to travel in a particular direction. What I say to the guys is that you do not lead harder and harder if the lady doesn't do what you thought you'd led, you just keep the pressure the same until the lady reads the message in the invitation. For the first part of the manspin it works best if the guy keeps his left hand at hip level and doesn't raise or lower it - this is easier if you haven't raised or lowered your hand in the "wave" of a semi-circle when you stepped the lady back in preparation for the move. That wave would lead a pivot in a lady who is a good follower - what you want is for her to step back. After the lady has stepped back you want her to simply walk forward and follow her hand. Her top half of the lady should be an isolation she simply walks forward as you draw her hand forward - all the angles above the waist for the lady should stay pretty much constant. She keeps up that isolation as you initiate that turn by placing her hand on your waist. As you pass each other the lady's turn continues to be led by your waist as you turn past her and she travels past you - the lady is a bit like a travelling turnstile. You stop her turning by taking her right hand in yours as you turn to face her.

What can go wrong with the manspin?

1. The guy doesn't get out of the lady's way and you have a collision

2. The guy doesn't get out of the lady's way and she has to take a detour which upsets the timing of the move.

3. The guy doen't raise his right hand/arm and the lady's right hand isn't placed on his waist, the guy's right hand his "trapped" under the lady's hand/forearm (which could be nice ) making it difficult to take the lady's right hand with the guy's right hand.

4. The guy takes the lady's right hand and over-rotates her to his left in a massive preparation where he breaks the frame and looks over his left shoulder (I taught the manspin last night and saw this from a guy who nomally goes to a "class down the road"* - the "preparation" was pointless as the next move was a hatchback )


*This visitor from "a class down the road" also turned ladies down when they asked him to dance" I'm having our "rules" put on the entry desk. One of them will be "guys must always accept an invitation to dance from a lady".

[Steven666]

Firstly, in the open hand hold you can only lead clearly if you are leading the lady forwards, backwards into a turn or a pivot. If you are leading the lady across in a diagonal you are leading the lady to pivot and travel forwards when all you require to do the manspin is for the lady to step forwards. This means that you lead is ambiguous "do you want me to pivot, turn or travel forwards". If your lead is clear it will lead only one thing in the first part of the manspin - that is to travel forwards down their slot. Try leading just that thing and getting out of the lady's way - get the lady you are practicing with to tell you if she feels like she's being let straight forwards or being turned a bit as well as led forwards.

The pivital problem is that followera AUTOMATIC WANT to move of the slot regardless whether you lead them directly forward simply as followers subconciously gain bad habits, just like leads, and to such an extent they find it perfectly natural to do what they usually do. Time could be taken to correct followers who still do this but there wouldn't be enough time to correct them all. It also depends on whether the lead WANTs to stay in slot. It isn't neccessary in freestyle to do so and rarely does so.

Remember, a lead is simply an invitation. It is not strong or any other measure of power, it is the minimum required to indicate to the lady that you would like her to travel in a particular direction. What I say to the guys is that you do not lead harder and harder if the lady doesn't do what you thought you'd led, you just keep the pressure the same until the lady reads the message in the invitation. For the first part of the manspin it works best if the guy keeps his left hand at hip level and doesn't raise or lower it - this is easier if you haven't raised or lowered your hand in the "wave" of a semi-circle when you stepped the lady back in preparation for the move. That wave would lead a pivot in a lady who is a good follower - what you want is for her to step back. After the lady has stepped back you want her to simply walk forward and follow her hand. Her top half of the lady should be an isolation she simply walks forward as you draw her hand forward - all the angles above the waist for the lady should stay pretty much constant. She keeps up that isolation as you initiate that turn by placing her hand on your waist. As you pass each other the lady's turn continues to be led by your waist as you turn past her and she travels past you - the lady is a bit like a travelling turnstile. You stop her turning by taking her right hand in yours as you turn to face her.

The manspin on paper form. If only tha were true to every manspin done in practice. I know how it should be done. I just don't find it pleasurable to stay constantly in the same slot. I like comfort whether that's regarded as slack or not.

What can go wrong with the manspin?

A lot.

1. The guy doesn't get out of the lady's way and you have a collision

Rarely happens due to followers automatic instincts of having been led wrong (textbook speaking) so many times, that they move out of the way regardless of lead.

2. The guy doesn't get out of the lady's way and she has to take a detour which upsets the timing of the move.

It's never detracted from the timing of the move for me. It not that you will end up of beat when you reach the connection having changed places. If you do end up off beat after the "detour" then I would worry.

3. The guy doen't raise his right hand/arm and the lady's right hand isn't placed on his waist, the guy's right hand his "trapped" under the lady's hand/forearm (which could be nice ) making it difficult to take the lady's right hand with the guy's right hand.

Shadow lead or catch left, not that that would happen of course.

4. The guy takes the lady's right hand and over-rotates her to his left in a massive preparation where he breaks the frame and looks over his left shoulder (I taught the manspin last night and saw this from a guy who nomally goes to a "class down the road"* - the "preparation" was pointless as the next move was a hatchback )[/quote]

That would would be sloppy. Not really seen that though. It would be more a common problem that the lead over rotates to the right when prep-ing into the spin turning his shoulders slightly. That gives the impression to the followers of some sort of preztel meaning they dive to the left of you (exactly where you will be spinning) and then.collide. I see that happen (it used to happen to me until I correct it so it wouldn't, but it's still no excuse for a follow to pounce at a preztel offer before they should).

*This visitor from "a class down the road" also turned ladies down when they asked him to dance" I'm having our "rules" put on the entry desk. One of them will be "guys must always accept an invitation to dance from a lady".

Is that a "rule"? An unwritten social one maybe but that's all.

[David Bailey]

Is that a "rule"? An unwritten social one maybe but that's all.

His gaff, his rules.

[Andy McGregor]

The pivital problem is that followera AUTOMATIC WANT to move of the slot regardless whether you lead them directly forward simply as followers subconciously gain bad habits, just like leads, and to such an extent they find it perfectly natural to do what they usually do. Time could be taken to correct followers who still do this but there wouldn't be enough time to correct them all. It also depends on whether the lead WANTs to stay in slot. It isn't neccessary in freestyle to do so and rarely does so.

The manspin on paper form. If only tha were true to every manspin done in practice. I know how it should be done. I just don't find it pleasurable to stay constantly in the same slot. I like comfort whether that's regarded as slack or not.

The message I receive from this is "I'm Steven666, I know how to do the manspin properly but choose to do it a different way because I can". There is also a whif of "I would do it properly but the ladies get it wrong no matter how I do it".

Both of the above are excuses for a move going wrong. If you lead a move properly your partner will follow that lead. At least that's what I find. How about others?

Is that a "rule"? An unwritten social one maybe but that's all.

His gaff, his rules.

It is bad manners to refuse a lady when she asks for a dance. I do not allow bad manners at our classes

[Steven666]

The message I receive from this is "I'm Steven666, I know how to do the manspin properly but choose to do it a different way because I can". There is also a whif of "I would do it properly but the ladies get it wrong no matter how I do it".

Both of the above are excuses for a move going wrong. If you lead a move properly your partner will follow that lead. At least that's what I find. How about others?

Not if they don't know how to lead properly. I'm not talking about the mjority of follows but you can't say it doesn't happen.

As for my manspin. I choose to do it the way I do it because I want to do it that way. Whether it's technically sound isn't important to me and doesn't detract from the feel of the dance at all. The follower follows what I lead whether it be by textbook or not.

I'm in this game for fun, not to win competitions. Well not yet!

[Lee Bartholomew]

As for my manspin. I choose to do it the way I do it because I want to do it that way. Whether it's technically sound isn't important to me and doesn't detract from the feel of the dance at all. The follower follows what I lead whether it be by textbook or not.

That is what makes a dancer, the ability not to worry about how things are taught but to worry about what makes a dance feel great.

Personally I hate signals unless they are needed and invisible to onlookers. Nothing looks worse than dancers who look like those American ploicemen who direct traffic.

[StokeBloke]

It is bad manners to refuse a lady when she asks for a dance. I do not allow bad manners at our classes

If someone has plucked up the courage to ask, surely it is bad manners for anyone to refuse them a dance when asked, isn't it Andy? Be they male or female.

[Gav]

If someone has plucked up the courage to ask, surely it is bad manners for anyone to refuse them a dance when asked, isn't it Andy? Be they male or female.

Here we go again.

[Steven666]

That is what makes a dancer, the ability not to worry about how things are taught but to worry about what makes a dance feel great.

Personally I hate signals unless they are needed and invisible to onlookers. Nothing looks worse than dancers who look like those American ploicemen who direct traffic.

Woot!

I actually find dancing permanently in slot uncomfortable, hindering the flow of the dance, especially with less experienced dancers simply as you can't "iron out" such things as over-rotation, a preemptive back leader, coushioning turns/returns as easily. These things are made much easier under a circular & non-textbook lead.

[Wobbly Dave]

You're welcome

I've seen someone (but can't remember who) on here say that they lead neckbreaks without the "signal". And I used the " " because of the debate on here about whether you should use signals or not.

However, from a follower's perspective, even if the hand position is more prep than signal, it still effectively acts as a signal to the follower as to what is probably coming next.

Depends which hand I use for the neckbreak. Right to right - it can be led as a "high" sway

[tsh]

how do these signals work when the follower has their eyes closed?

[Lee Bartholomew]

how do these signals work when the follower has their eyes closed?

A decent lead can lead a whole dance with the followers eyes closed. Infact, The Ceroc Sailsbury teacher / Franchise owner (I think shes called Carol) got the beginners to close their eyes during the end of the beginners lesson to get them to stop pre-empting moves.

Signals are just a legacy thing from days of yore. Most teachers dont teach signals in intermediate lessons now. Ifact the only two moves I can think of signals being taught is the man spin and neckbreak, as discused. Both moves look so much neater without the pointless signal.

[StokeBloke]

Here we go again.

Has this been discussed before? It's just that Andy made a categorical statement about bad manners not being tolerated in his classes. I was just wondering why Andy singled out the hurting of a women's feelings as bad manners (quite rightly too), but strangely left off the hurting of a man's feelings as bad manners.

Just an oversight on Andy's part I'm sure. I was only looking for a little clarity

[Jamie]

And F F S Jamie... drunk or not..... when an arm is placed in the HOW position for a neck break SIGNAL it does NOT put the lead's hand at shoulder height!!! Arghhhhh it's more like temple height!!!!!

I said ARM not HAND!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[MartinHarper]

how do these signals work when the follower has their eyes closed?

I precede the signal with a "pre-signal". This is a verbal pre-signal consisting of me telling my partner to open her eyes.

[David Franklin]

I precede the signal with a "pre-signal". This is a verbal pre-signal consisting of me telling my partner to open her eyes.

Amongst my crowd, a cry of "hey what are Anton and Erin doing here?" is pretty much guaranteed to do the trick.

[Andy McGregor]

If someone has plucked up the courage to ask, surely it is bad manners for anyone to refuse them a dance when asked, isn't it Andy? Be they male or female.

Yes it is. However, we can not ignore convention. For many people it is the convention that guys ask ladies to dance. It takes a great deal of courage for some ladies to ask a guy to dance. If a guy says "no" it might put the lady off ever asking a guy again - in some cases it might be the first and last time a lady asks a guy to dance. On the other hand, most guys have been turned down when asking for a dance, some of us many times My rules are that ladies must give gracious refusal if they don't want to dance and accompany that refusal with a reason "I'm sorry, I'm having a rest, maybe later" etc. That way the guy's ego is not too bruised. My rule for the guys is that they must always say yes. A guy must hide outside if he wants a break and he's still fair game if some resourceful woman runs him to ground. I've done nothing to enforce these rules, just stated them - so far

[StokeBloke]

I said ARM not HAND!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Umm... ok then..... want some more WKD

[ShinyWeeStar]

was the final score 3 - 1 or 4 - 0?????

Not sure, I think Jamie called it a draw in the end, seeing as he always wins... just to make it fair or something... I'm sure it made sense at the time.

I did nearly crack out laughing tho last night on stage when Jamie taught a manspin... also on the yo-yo - place your hands in an elbow to elbow position "at shoulder height" became quite amusing....

Wish I'd been a fly on the wall!

I said ARM not HAND!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...aaaaaaaaaand there it is!

[Andy McGregor]

Not if they don't know how to lead properly. I'm not talking about the mjority of follows but you can't say it doesn't happen.

As for my manspin. I choose to do it the way I do it because I want to do it that way. Whether it's technically sound isn't important to me and doesn't detract from the feel of the dance at all. The follower follows what I lead whether it be by textbook or not.

I'm in this game for fun, not to win competitions. Well not yet!

If you don't care how you, or others do a move, why are you contributing to a technical thread about how to do a move?