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Thread: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

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    Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Inspired by Stoke Bloke at Blaze in a caravan with some drunk inverness people... I don't know why, but we ended up in a big discussion about neckbreak and manspin "signals"...

    After lots of confusion about what "shoulder height" meant.. We got onto the subject of manspins and signals!

    In your opinion, is the manspin (Beat 1) "Leaders: step back raising your right hand above waist level with your palm facing the floor" bit a "preparation" or a "signal"?

    I almost forgot about it until reading this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    With a couple of exceptions (e.g neck break and manspin, because they are often started with a "signal")
    Thanks Twirly
    So I'm putting it out to you guys n girls, is it a preparation... signal... or were you simply not taught this part of the manspin...? I'm intrigued as to what others think or have been taught...

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Inspired by Stoke Bloke at Blaze in a caravan with some drunk inverness people... I don't know why, but we ended up in a big discussion about neckbreak and manspin "signals"...

    After lots of confusion about what "shoulder height" meant.. We got onto the subject of manspins and signals!

    In your opinion, is the manspin (Beat 1) "Leaders: step back raising your right hand above waist level with your palm facing the floor" bit a "preparation" or a "signal"?

    I almost forgot about it until reading this post:



    Thanks Twirly
    So I'm putting it out to you guys n girls, is it a preparation... signal... or were you simply not taught this part of the manspin...? I'm intrigued as to what others think or have been taught...
    in my experience it's both - and if it's not taught - either as a preperation or a signal then guys often don't get their arm out of the way and get all tangled ....

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    You're welcome

    I've seen someone (but can't remember who) on here say that they lead neckbreaks without the "signal". And I used the " " because of the debate on here about whether you should use signals or not.

    However, from a follower's perspective, even if the hand position is more prep than signal, it still effectively acts as a signal to the follower as to what is probably coming next.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Had a long chat with Lucky about this one down the pub a few weeks ago.

    We reckon that, you only need a signal for something that can't be lead in freestyle. As such, the manspin, neckbreak and pretzel are all preparation and not signals.

    That also goes for a flat hand before a Pushspin, use of the thumb on the Archiepsin and such. They can all be lead without the need to wave your arms around like you're bringing a 747 in to land.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    So I'm putting it out to you guys n girls, is it a preparation... signal... or were you simply not taught this part of the manspin...? I'm intrigued as to what others think or have been taught...
    It's a signal, but it's redundant as such. Im the sense that it helps the guy remember to get his hand out of the way, it's also a preparation for the man, but it's not a lead - as I understand it, the positioning is just a step-back, isn't it?

    The (similar) hand positioning for the neckbreak is a signal which is also a lead, so it's not redundant.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    We reckon that, you only need a signal for something that can't be lead in freestyle. As such, the manspin, neckbreak and pretzel are all preparation and not signals.
    Can you think of any non-leadable moves then?

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Can you think of any non-leadable moves then?
    Loads.

    How many classes have you been to where the teacher has taught a move that there is no way you can do with a lady in freestyle if she has no idea what's coming? I'm not saying they all need signals, but do start getting into the realms of choreography and not classic lead and follow freestyle.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    In your opinion, is the manspin (Beat 1) "Leaders: step back raising your right hand above waist level with your palm facing the floor" bit a "preparation" or a "signal"?
    If it's not a signal, then it won't matter which way your palm faces will it?
    I can see it as preparation for a "full man-spin" where you turn 1.5 times (or more ), but in the normal man-spin, you only step around anyway, so why would you need to stick your arm out unless it's a signal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Can you think of any non-leadable moves then?
    F.F.S. James, you couldn't resist could you?

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    In your opinion, is the manspin (Beat 1) "Leaders: step back raising your right hand above waist level with your palm facing the floor" bit a "preparation" or a "signal"?
    Both I would say... As stated above if you don't lift your arm in time you'll end up in a tangle. That's the "basic" way I do it..

    As for neck breaks.. I just pass one hand into t'other.. no real signal there.. I think the neck brake "HOW!" signal looks a little off to me !

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    I've always thought of them as signals mainly because I have heard them described as signals many times from the stage.

    I'm perfectly happy to think of them as preparation instead Any kind of body moment required for a move can be called preparation and in all those cases, the signals are required movements even if you can 'tone them down a bit' or 'leave them till a bit later' once your more experienced, and still get the desired result.

    So yes. 'Preparatory signals' is maybe what I would call them

    I would call a real signal something like the tap on the shoulder whch precedes some move or other I've completely forgotten the name of now.... which has no preparational content whatsoever and is a pure signal.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Loads.
    OK, such as?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    How many classes have you been to where the teacher has taught a move that there is no way you can do with a lady in freestyle if she has no idea what's coming?
    Ummm.... none?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    F.F.S. James, you couldn't resist could you?
    Nope

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    OK, such as?

    Ummm.... none?


    Nope
    Tango lunge, that ghastly porn star move, glider, I could go on...

    Are we to assume then, that every move you've ever been taught has been leadable with any woman regardless of whether she has been taught the move too?

    What's that smell???

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Tango lunge, that ghastly porn star move, glider, I could go on...
    Tango lunge is completely leadable, I do it all the time - the tricky part is to get the follower's free leg wrapped around yours, but that's also achievable.

    "Pornstar move", I dunno - is that a move, or just a piece of choreography someone's come up with?

    "Glider" - err, dunno that one. If it's an aerial, then it's an exception however, as are other dips, drops and aerials - as they're clearly not fully followable, so can't be fully-leadable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Are we to assume then, that every move you've ever been taught has been leadable with any woman regardless of whether she has been taught the move too?
    The dance is called lead-and-follow.

    It's not called lead-and-anticipate, lead-and-recognise, or lead-and-give-it-your-best-shot-at-a-guess.

    Dips / drops / aerials aside, all the moves I've encountered which supposedly require a Secret Squirrel signal have, after enough work, turned out to be leadable given a good enough lead.

    Possibly I don't know enough moves however, I am after all just a beginner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    What's that smell???
    Sweat?
    Last edited by David Bailey; 30th-October-2007 at 04:49 PM.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    As people will know, I'm not a fan of signals and do not teach moves with signals. However, I do teach what the signals are so that ladies from our classes will know what's going on when they receive a signal from a guy who has learnt elsewhere. A signal is a way of getting the lady to do something that she might not get from the lead. In the manspin you don't want the lady to do anything except change places and turn through 180 degrees: you are leading that with your left hand initially to start the lady travelling and then it's a beer belly (body) lead to get the lady to turn and look back down her slot. As you are not expecting the lady to do anything in response to the raising of your right hand it can not be a signal - or if it is a signal, it is one with no meaning that instructs the lady to do nothing different

    Therefore it is a preparation. You need to raise your right hand above the lady's right arm to execute the move nicely while the lady's hand is on your beer muscle. However, you might not choose to do the hand raise on the backstep, you could do it as you step forward. Whatever the guy does, the lady does the move in exactly the same way.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    "Glider" - err, dunno that one. If it's an aerial, then it's an exception however, as are other dips, drops and aerials - as they're clearly not fully followable, so can't be fully-leadable.
    The "glider" isn't an aerial: see Modern Jive :: Glider :: Brief Description (if you can understand those diagrams - I never can!).

    Suffice it to say that I was at the pub with a Ceroc teacher who started talking about "what's the worst move in Ceroc?" I ended the discussion when I suggested the Glider.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Tango Lunge is a bit advanced for a beginner.

    My entire point is that it's meant to be lead and follow and signals should only be used for moves you can't lead otherwise. Or in other words, when you want the lady to do something that you can't lead by pushing and pulling her about.

    If you can't get the lady's leg over without some kind of prearranged move then it's not properly leadable.

    Lots of drops, lifts and seducers are leadable without the need for a signal. Knowing your desire for lists, here goes:

    1st Move Seducer
    Arm Roll Seducer
    Accordian Hook Dip
    Ballroom Drop
    Fast 1st Seducer
    Half Loop
    Star Jump
    Wurlitzer into Seducer
    Hip Hop
    Buzz Saw
    Etc

    The Glider is actually a defunked James Cronin move that we dropped a few years ago. Totally unleadable, which is why it was dropped I suppose. It wasn't a drop or lift it was a dreadful turn one way then the other kind of arrangement.

    Moves with complex footwork are also far from leadable.

    The acid test is whether you can lead a lady (who can follow reasonibly well) that has no prior knowledge of the move into it.

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    The "glider" isn't an aerial: see Modern Jive :: Glider :: Brief Description (if you can understand those diagrams - I never can!).
    Ah, OK.

    From the description, it seems perfectly leadable - in fact, the leads for each stage are provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Suffice it to say that I was at the pub with a Ceroc teacher who started talking about "what's the worst move in Ceroc?" I ended the discussion when I suggested the Glider.
    What, not the Tunnel? That always used to get a groan when Mr Ellard decided to inflict it on us, back in the Central Club days...

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What, not the Tunnel? That always used to get a groan when Mr Ellard decided to inflict it on us, back in the Central Club days...
    Let's just say that at this point the teacher had suggested Lady's tunnel into Man's tunnel as the worst move, and was forced to admit the Glider beat it hands down.

    If you haven't done it, I don't think you can appreciate how awful it feels in practice. [Well, it did when I last saw it taught, which would have been maybe 7 years ago; I wasn't a terribly good dancer then - if you're a good dancer it might be better. But I think the only people I ever saw make it look not-awful were Viktor and Lydia].

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    My entire point is that it's meant to be lead and follow and signals should only be used for moves you can't lead otherwise.

    Or in other words, when you want the lady to do something that you can't lead by pushing and pulling her about.
    Actually, I agree with this in theory - in fact to me this is a good description of the difference between a lead and a signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    If you can't get the lady's leg over without some kind of prearranged move then it's not properly leadable.
    It's a variant of a gancho. I can lead it, assuming the follower doesn't fight it and has some dissociation, but I'm not good enough to lead it on a beginner. However, I don't believe that - just because I can't lead it - it's unleadable. It just means I'm not that good at leading it yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Lots of drops, lifts and seducers are leadable without the need for a signal.
    As I understand it, and paraphrasing other and great Davids, these lift cannot be followed past the "tipping point", because followers are off their axes, so they're literally in the hands of their leaders - there's no way to refuse the lead. So those moves are exceptions, for those reasons.

    DavidF or B can (and did) explain it better than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    The Glider is actually a defunked James Cronin move that we dropped a few years ago. Totally unleadable, which is why it was dropped I suppose. It wasn't a drop or lift it was a dreadful turn one way then the other kind of arrangement.
    It looks leadable but I don't recognise it, so I couldn't say for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Moves with complex footwork are also far from leadable.
    Well, there's a "leading a triple step" thread for you to contribute to if you want. And of course, my own travails with leading the West Manhattan are also documented in a thread.

    Complex footwork is more difficult to lead. The solution to this is simple - I need to learn to lead better. As opposed to (for example) yelling "Columbian" at my partner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    The acid test is whether you can lead a lady (who can follow reasonibly well) that has no prior knowledge of the move into it.
    As I said, I've not found such a move yet...

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    Re: Signals and Manspins!! AHHH

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi's Sweat Band View Post
    Lots of drops, lifts and seducers are leadable without the need for a signal.
    Did you mean to say this? How exactly were you planning on leading a half moon or star jump? In particular, how do you lead a star jump so the follow knows it isn't a toss to chair?

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