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Thread: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    I like this show don’t always see it but thought that internet gambling idea (showing punters best odds etc ) was a good idea. They got £200,000 for 30% stake

    I wonder how you would go about presenting if you wanted to take on ceroc ??

    Say £40,000 to get you going with a 10% stake of your business

    I think you would need

    10 Teachers/Taxi dancers types on board , at least 4/5 potential venues

    Lots of reference to ceroc/Jive growth area etc etc

    Revenue streams and market penetration etc etc

    Your market entry etc etc


    Who will join me on the next series

    Ill hold the ‘chart board’. Lets go for £200,000

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Why would you want to?

    It's not a major money-maker - almost no dance venture is. So all you're doing is trying to compete with an established and experienced operator, for a share of a market which isn't really worth that much in the first place.

    OK, there may be gaps in the market - Jive Nation springs to mind - but even so, it's unlikely to make a lot of cash.

    "Teaching dance" is hardly a massive innovation now, is it?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why would you want to?

    It's not a major money-maker - almost no dance venture is. So all you're doing is trying to compete with an established and experienced operator, for a share of a market which isn't really worth that much in the first place.

    OK, there may be gaps in the market - Jive Nation springs to mind - but even so, it's unlikely to make a lot of cash.

    "Teaching dance" is hardly a massive innovation now, is it?
    Nor is setting up another dating site

    Have a look at the sucess of the london dating site that was aim to get Londoners to meet in their lunch time. Set up last year now gone national

    Think outside of the box, sorry your not on my team

    22 million people dance in the last year in the uk find the market

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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why would you want to?

    It's not a major money-maker - almost no dance venture is. So all you're doing is trying to compete with an established and experienced operator, for a share of a market which isn't really worth that much in the first place.

    OK, there may be gaps in the market - Jive Nation springs to mind - but even so, it's unlikely to make a lot of cash.

    "Teaching dance" is hardly a massive innovation now, is it?
    Look up the records on the various Ceroc franchises at Companies House.

    You will be amazed at how much money can be made as a franchise holder of Ceroc.

    However, that doesn't mean it would be possible to make that sort of hard cash as an Independent.

    MoJive do well done on the South Coast, but they have no real competition at the moment.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus View Post
    Look up the records on the various Ceroc franchises at Companies House.

    You will be amazed at how much money can be made as a franchise holder of Ceroc.

    However, that doesn't mean it would be possible to make that sort of hard cash as an Independent.

    MoJive do well done on the South Coast, but they have no real competition at the moment.
    I saw dragons dead last night and have to say its fairly easy

    They want to hear numbers and experience not wishful numbers

    Id say

    Average of ceroc in 1994 was 29
    Average of ceroc 2007 is 39

    3.3m people under 25 go ‘dancing’ every weekend

    I’ve got an agreement with these 14 night clubs to do a 1hr dance lesson between 11-12 at these clubs at £3 a head or £5 with a ‘free’ drink


    Of the three im running now we had 49 on average attend . The clubs at present take 50% of the money etc

    Etc etc

    at 2am we had our first 'how many prestals can you do in 5 mins' with 300 entries

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus View Post
    Look up the records on the various Ceroc franchises at Companies House.

    You will be amazed at how much money can be made as a franchise holder of Ceroc.
    Thats just got me thinking ... how come none of the dance businesses seem to be VAT registered? Quick calculation suggests that an average club (with freestyles and workshops) generates around #30k per year. So, a franchisee with two clubs and say 3 nights between them must be over the VAT threshold of #64K ... so how come they don't charge VAT. The same must go for all the weekenders ... or are they classified as 'educational'? (Its a long time since I sat my tax exams)

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus View Post
    Look up the records on the various Ceroc franchises at Companies House.

    You will be amazed at how much money can be made as a franchise holder of Ceroc.
    I'm sure I would indeed.

    But I'd also be amazed by the amount of money that can be lost

    Off the top of my head, I reckon the overheads at a Ceroc class night - any Ceroc night - are probably several hundred quid, before anyone walks in the door.

    • You've got to hire the venue - call it £100 for the night.
    • You've got to pay staff - the venue manager, the teacher, the DJ, plus taxis etc. Call it another £150.
    • You've got to pay a franchise fee (presumably) - call it £50 at a wild guess.
    • You've got to pay for miscellaneous costs - equipment, drinks etc. - call that another £50 per night.


    So you probably need a minimum of 40 people at a Ceroc-style MJ night, just to break even.

    Obviously, you can shave that cost down somewhat, but MJ nights are designed with relatively fixed overheads. Compare and contrast with salsa or AT classes, where you can get away with a single person acting as teacher / DJ / door person, all you need to hire is a pub function room.

    But I'm sure you guys know all this stuff however

    Anyway, the bottom line is there's just not enough money in dancing - any dancing - in the UK, for anyone to think that they can make a fortune out of it.

    Sure, there may be 100,000 people dancing MJ in the UK each month, but that's still a combined national revenue of less than £10 million PA, which is small-company sized. And that's after 25 years of promotion and expansion, across hundreds of venues.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But I'd also be amazed by the amount of money that can be lost
    Ain't that the truth .. lost well over #6k in my first yaer or so as a Ceroc franchisee.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So you probably need a minimum of 40 people at a Ceroc-style MJ night, just to break even.
    Also true. My last club had a breakeven of 50 .... which we managed to top after 5 months of hard work. Having said that ... when we eventually managed to get Ceroc Nantwich working well we were hitting towards 100 a week .... so the money was rolling in ... still is AFAIK. The market is still out there if you get the right crew, right venue and right area .... but luck still plays a major role.

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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I saw dragons dead last night and have to say its fairly easy

    They want to hear numbers and experience not wishful numbers

    Id say

    Average of ceroc in 1994 was 29
    Average of ceroc 2007 is 39

    3.3m people under 25 go ‘dancing’ every weekend

    I’ve got an agreement with these 14 night clubs to do a 1hr dance lesson between 11-12 at these clubs at £3 a head or £5 with a ‘free’ drink


    Of the three im running now we had 49 on average attend . The clubs at present take 50% of the money etc

    Etc etc

    at 2am we had our first 'how many prestals can you do in 5 mins' with 300 entries
    .... Next ...

    11 pm is when the "pubs closed" punter comes in, for more drink.
    Don't drink and jive.
    1 pair jiving = space for 5 (at least) chatting ( and drinking).
    Jive attracts "fit" birds. Have the jive lesson early, and get some life into the club early to try and bring the drinkers in sooner. Some dancers will stay on for a post dance drink.
    The killer: Why will the club owner pay you when they can do it themselves? i.e. as soon as you have made the night profitable and shown them how to do it?

    dance nights in bedford

    but, huge rivers are made from tiny streams. If you are running a regular venue and freestyles and weekenders the stream of dancers and vibe generated will feed you. Most real dancers don't fancy 300 drunken "preshtsels".

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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Thats just got me thinking ... how come none of the dance businesses seem to be VAT registered? Quick calculation suggests that an average club (with freestyles and workshops) generates around #30k per year. So, a franchisee with two clubs and say 3 nights between them must be over the VAT threshold of #64K ... so how come they don't charge VAT. The same must go for all the weekenders ... or are they classified as 'educational'? (Its a long time since I sat my tax exams)
    I've looked into this one. The way my accountant explained it to me is that you are "educational" if you are teaching in a business where you are a sole trader or a partnership. However, if you employ teachers it's not "educational". Maybe our accountant is getting it wrong if Ceroc are trading as a limited company and is not registered for VAT.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    However, if you employ teachers it's not "educational".
    He must have been to a Ceroc class... OK, OK, cheap shot, but I thought it was funny.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons Den, how would you sell an alternative to ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Also true. My last club had a breakeven of 50 .... which we managed to top after 5 months of hard work. Having said that ... when we eventually managed to get Ceroc Nantwich working well we were hitting towards 100 a week .... so the money was rolling in ... still is AFAIK. The market is still out there if you get the right crew, right venue and right area .... but luck still plays a major role.
    Sure, there are lots of successful venues. In my manor, Ceroc Metro have St. Albans and Mondays at Finchley - they both average 150 / night I reckon. On the other hand, Shenley's struggling, I imagine that it only has 30-40 on average, Tuesday Finchleys are quieter than Mondays, and I remember a few years back Mondays consisting of me and a couple of monkeys.

    Similarly, Ceroc London have busy venues (Ashtons, Fulham), and quiet venues. The busy ones subsidize the quiet ones.

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