To Talc or Not To Talc

[David Bailey]

David you Im sure are aware each venue has to have Public Liability insurance, I would say they are more are worried about possible accidents from slipping over, well maybe some dont. When a organsior takes on that venue of a night he should inspect the floor(venue) and if theres a problem, report it. If he doesnt and makes changes, he is now responsible. The organisor maybe not be allowed to do anything to the floor because of their contract with venues.

Funny how the franchise owner, and the very same venue manager, have since been seen frantically spreading talc on the floor at that place since then, though.

Possibly my brand of talc, which was placed in a corner rather than splashed all over the place, was not Ceroc-approved?

Have you ever hired a dance hall?

No, but I've paid to dance in hundreds of them. I'm a customer, a fee-paying punter. I know when a floor's rubbish, believe me.

Alec (ESG) recently opened a venue in Golders Green. He inspected the floor on the day of the grand opening, and decided it wasn't acceptable to dance on, and so he postponed the opening as a result. He's no doubt lost a lot of business because of this problematic opening, but it was the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, that dancer-oriented mentality (rather than a mealy-mouthed legal-liability-oriented mentality) is all too rare amongst venue organisers. In short, a lot of them simply couldn't give a stuff about their customers' health and safety as long as they're properly insured.

And when was the last time you heard of an organiser being sued for a dance accident?

[Astro]

Certainly worth opting for faster shoes for a while and see if that helps your knee and hip problems.

I stopped wearing the suede sandals because the floors are so dirty in London, and it took ages to get them clean. They are beige soles, but I suppose I could just let them be a bit dirty. They are Freeds and great to dance in, but I didn't think my balance was so good as in trainers.

Is it best for women not to chop and change - say from flat trainers to 2 and a half heels, to flats and back and forth.

Maybe if I stayed in heels all the time I'd find my balance in the heels?

Thanks for the advice Lynn

[Lynn]

An organisor has Public Liability cover, he has to worry he doesnt get a claim! let alone poor someone being actually injured, best to sadly avoid that venue if the floor is "badly" consistent. If they put Talc down they are now responsible should accidents occur from it!

I'm not talking about putting talc on the floor - that was the whole point of my post - if dancers are talcing their shoes away from the floor and therefore some 'accidentally' gets on the floor from the dancers shoes surely that is just as 'accidental' as a spilled drink?

And if you have ever tried to find a venue (and I have) then you might know how hard it is to find a suitable one and you might need to take steps to improve the floor to make it suitable for dancing. I've never had to talc a floor but I've had to spend a good 15 mins finding brushes and cleaning a floor to make it less sticky.

And yes, I've already stated that I will simply not go to a venue if the floor is poor. Its one of the main reasons why I gave up salsa, the state of the venue floors were so bad I couldn't wear my dance shoes (one salsa teacher even said on a local forum - wear your old street shoes for dancing so it doesn't matter if they get ruined by the floor!).

[Bluey]

well done sir[/B]

Unfortunately, that dancer-oriented mentality (rather than a mealy-mouthed legal-liability-oriented mentality) is all too rare amongst venue organisers. In short, a lot of them simply couldn't give a stuff about their customers' health and safety as long as they're properly insured.

And when was the last time you heard of an organiser being sued for a dance accident?

I know of two that have happened!!

[Bluey]

I stopped wearing the suede sandals because the floors are so dirty in London, and it took ages to get them clean. They are beige soles, but I suppose I could just let them be a bit dirty. They are Freeds and great to dance in, but I didn't think my balance was so good as in trainers.

Is it best for women not to chop and change - say from flat trainers to 2 and a half heels, to flats and back and forth.

Maybe if I stayed in heels all the time I'd find my balance in the heels?

Thanks for the advice Lynn

I danced on the very wet floor on HMS President Tea Dance, ruined my suede shoes!!

[Bluey]

I'm not talking about putting talc on the floor - that was the whole point of my post - if dancers are talcing their shoes away from the floor and therefore some 'accidentally' gets on the floor from the dancers shoes surely that is just as 'accidental' as a spilled drink?

And if you have ever tried to find a venue (and I have) then you might know how hard it is to find a suitable one and you might need to take steps to improve the floor to make it suitable for dancing. I've never had to talc a floor but I've had to spend a good 15 mins finding brushes and cleaning a floor to make it less sticky.

And yes, I've already stated that I will simply not go to a venue if the floor is poor. Its one of the main reasons why I gave up salsa, the state of the venue floors were so bad I couldn't wear my dance shoes (one salsa teacher even said on a local forum - wear your old street shoes for dancing so it doesn't matter if they get ruined by the floor!).

How far away from the floor? the fact they carried their talc on the shoes rather than in a bottle, the act is still the same isnt it?

I know all about venues for over 30 years, I discuss with the hall management and when a problem comes up, discuss it. IF things dont improve and it affects the dancing and safety of dancers, then find another venue. BUT you know what likely to happen, you give up that venue and some ones else takes it on!!

I know of one venue where the floor is nice and fast but dancers actually complain its too fast but its normally those who have only danced on slow floors and dont have a 2nd pair of dance shoes.

Yes you are ALL right about venues, if you find a problem, find another venue there is so much choice these days?

[Lynn]

I danced on the very wet floor on HMS President Tea Dance, ruined my suede shoes!!

Not walking on wet ground in suede shoes is one of the first rules!

(I remember the fire alarm going off at the BFG and us all on the steps changing into street shoes much to the bemusement of the firemen, rather than walk across the wet road!)

A wee bit of water won't ruin them, I've walked through spilled drinks before, but I'd wait and let them dry first.

Wetting leather shoes a little helps if the floor is too fast. Just as I've seen dancers step in a little pile of talc at the side of the floor, I've also seen dancers pour a little water out of their bottle onto the floor (at the side) and step in it - but these were leather soled shoes (and AT dancers).

[Lynn]

How far away from the floor? the fact they carried their talc on the shoes rather than in a bottle, the act is still the same isnt it?

The same as what? The same as an accidental spill or the same as the person who runs the venue talcing the floor? Do you mean you consider individual dancers talcing their shoes to be the same as the organiser talcing the whole floor?

Yes you are ALL right about venues, if you find a problem, find another venue there is so much choice these days?

Not for an organiser. Good venues are few and far between! But that's my point, sometimes you need to find a way to make a venue workable with taking steps to make the floor more dancer friendly, rather than just giving up the venue.

[Astro]

I danced on the very wet floor on HMS President Tea Dance, ruined my suede shoes!!

Have you still got them because I used sandpaper on mine.

[eeyore]

I stopped wearing the suede sandals because the floors are so dirty in London, and it took ages to get them clean. They are beige soles, but I suppose I could just let them be a bit dirty. They are Freeds and great to dance in, but I didn't think my balance was so good as in trainers.

Is it best for women not to chop and change - say from flat trainers to 2 and a half heels, to flats and back and forth.

Maybe if I stayed in heels all the time I'd find my balance in the heels?

Thanks for the advice Lynn

Well, it's news to me.


I just bought my 3rd pair of trainers thinking the second pair were not cushioning me due to being worn out, though they looked ok - I had that heel pain thing that Lory has now.

.

I had very bad heel strike last year, I think caused by dancing in flats but raising up on my toes as if I was in heels - it put too much strain under the foot. I don't think it was caused specifically by trainers, I danced in them long before the problem started. Physio helped, but now I dance predominantly in flat or cuban suede soles. My dance style has changed now that I rarely wear heels, I stay closer to the floor & my foot is fine . So I'm not sure about the chop & change - I do change shoes but not heels...
If a floor is really fast (or carpeted) I wear trainers, but find them uncomfortable after a while - my soft cubans are the best dance shoes I've ever bought !
Re talc (the original thread!) I hate a really fast floor, I've been injured & I know a lady who fell & broke her wrist, but talc does make a tacky floor danceable - it's much more pleasant & saves the joints. I think it depends what the floor is like - not sure you can have a rule to fit all floors...

[Lynn]

Re talc (the original thread!) I hate a really fast floor, I've been injured & I know a lady who fell & broke her wrist, but talc does make a tacky floor danceable - it's much more pleasant & saves the joints. I think it depends what the floor is like - not sure you can have a rule to fit all floors...

I think everyone would agree an over talced floor to the point of being very fast is a bad idea. I think the issues are in using talc on really bad, slow floors, where knee damage would occur to dancers wearing 'average' dance shoes.

[eeyore]

I think everyone would agree an over talced floor to the point of being very fast is a bad idea. I think the issues are in using talc on really bad, slow floors, where knee damage would occur to dancers wearing 'average' dance shoes.

Which I would vote for! The scary thing was neither of the other 2 floors had been talc'd, as far as I'm aware. I really meant that while some people seem to thrive on very fast floors, I'd hate them to be made deliberately fast as it scares the life out of me ! I'm a happy medium... but talc on slow definately yes, my knees have taken too much of a pounding over the years to handle sticky floors.

[TurboTomato]

Apparently not.. I thought this initially but with just a very quick search on google it seemed to suggest that talc is none abrasive and that the platelets within the talc's chemical composition create a sliding effect rather than an abrasive effect.

Fair enough, I didn't know that!

[Bluey]

The same as what? The same as an accidental spill or the same as the person who runs the venue talcing the floor? Do you mean you consider individual dancers talcing their shoes to be the same as the organiser talcing the whole floor?

Not for an organiser. Good venues are few and far between! But that's my point, sometimes you need to find a way to make a venue workable with taking steps to make the floor more dancer friendly, rather than just giving up the venue.

1/ That would be down to a risk assessor re Talc.

2/ Discuss with venue the type of varnish they use, check the user of the venue, do they have problems with surface, is so get together a meeting with all concerned. I know one venue who changed the varnish they had used for years, no had actaully discussed the problems with them, just a thought

But you make a venue workable with a proper risk assessment

[Bluey]

Have you still got them because I used sandpaper on mine.

Yes but had to resole!

[David Franklin]

Well, it's news to me.

Note that I'm talking about normal trainers, not dance trainers. Trying to spin in normal trainers is suicide for your knees IMHO, and people really need to be warned.

Dance trainers are a lot better, to the point where most people will probably be fine with them. They do still stress the knees, so dance shoes are a safer bet. But even with my previous knee problems, I find I don't have trouble with dance trainers on anything other than the slowest of floors. Men turn less than women though.

[Lynn]

1/ That would be down to a risk assessor re Talc.

2/ Discuss with venue the type of varnish they use, check the user of the venue, do they have problems with surface, is so get together a meeting with all concerned. I know one venue who changed the varnish they had used for years, no had actaully discussed the problems with them, just a thought

But you make a venue workable with a proper risk assessment

Unless you have a venue for your exclusive use and no-one else uses it the rest of the week, then you'd have to do a risk assessment every night you used it as the floor condition can vary each week depending on who else has used it. I've had to clean spilled food off a 'dance floor' that had been used for a meal.

It would be interesting to see if a risk assessment has ever been done for using a venue for dancing. Ie in terms of damage to knees etc.

(I have done a consultation with a H&S officer once for a ceildh event which in the past had about double the number of people because the previous person organising it had no idea about dance space and had gone by the fire safety guidelines for the venue. Different issues but it shows that H&S for a venue needs to be tailored for the use.)

[Lynn]

Dance trainers are a lot better, to the point where most people will probably be fine with them. They do still stress the knees, so dance shoes are a safer bet. But even with my previous knee problems, I find I don't have trouble with dance trainers on anything other than the slowest of floors. Men turn less than women though.

I find that if I can't easily and smoothly do a double spin in my dance trainers (without switching feet) then prolonged dancing in them will start to hurt my knees. I've only found a handful of floors where I can do that, so in general I wouldn't dance for much more than an hour or so in them.

[David Franklin]

I find that if I can't easily and smoothly do a double spin in my dance trainers (without switching feet) then prolonged dancing in them will start to hurt my knees. I've only found a handful of floors where I can do that, so in general I wouldn't dance for much more than an hour or so in them.

Yes, thinking about it "most people won't find they instantly knacker their knees" would have been a better way of putting it.

[Lynn]

Yes, thinking about it "most people won't find they instantly knacker their knees" would have been a better way of putting it.

I love dancing and would like to keep dancing for years, so at a one off venue its 'can I dance on this floor?' but for a regular venue, or pair of shoes 'will dancing in these shoes/on this floor on a regular basis mean that over the months and years my knees are damaged?' is the question I ask myself. Good shoes and good floors are therefore important.