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Thread: Can I have my hand back please?

  1. #81
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    I've met a few dancers who are clearly not beginners, but still have crab-like grips.

    Sometimes the problem appears to be nervousness, sometimes its just habit.

    The advice about avoiding hand-hold moves as much as possible is one I can do fairly well. I also like to use wrist leads, and other connection techniques, however I've found some "nervous" dancers get scared by not having your hand in theirs and don't allow these unusual leading techniques. Also, a dancer I know complains that wrist leading can hurt her wrist - even when done very gently.

    For these reasons, I find it easier just to avoid dancing with people who I know will grip me and hurt me.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User mabraham's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    mabraham must have spent none of the time on his degree course learning about tact - or the use of capital letters.
    :headscratch:... I wouldn't have thought a science degree was where one was expected to learn tact... I would have thought it was interacting with people... yeah, that'd be it.

    Oh, and perhaps you'd like to enlighten me which of my proper nouns, or sentence-initiating words lack capitalization. Or is baseless criticism part of your normal display of "tact"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Very much like an all embracing, and IMHO, incorrect, suggestion that old, fat beginners are worse than any other kind of beginner. Anybody who criticises a whole group of, probably lovely and definitely sensitive, people deserves to be patronised
    I realise it's something of a novelty in an online forum to actually read the words someone was using, rather than impute to them whatever you think they were saying, but I object to the way I think you've misread me. Here's a refresher...

    Quote Originally Posted by mabraham View Post
    Ask them to not use their thumbs. I've had my shoulders injured too many times by followers not to do this. Admittedly, they've tended to be older, larger, fairly inexperienced and using too much tension to boot, but I feel I can keep myself safer if I know I can control where my hand is.
    Let's see, I made it clear that I ask followers not to use thumbs, because I have been injured, and go on to observe that those that have injured me have tended to be able to be described by a series of adjectives.

    Do I criticise such a group as whole? No.

    Do I say they're worse than any other sort of beginner? No.

    Has anybody else criticised what I've said? MinnieM expressed dismay at the events that led to my observation, and suggested my experience was atypical, but didn't find the kind of fault Andy's created.

    I've made sweeping criticism of a group...

    Quote Originally Posted by mabraham View Post
    Of course, there's plenty of blame to go around for the leads too... if they're routinely presented with forceful leads, then follows will use lots of tension in self-defence.

    at stupid men!
    ...and nobody's objected.

    Quote Originally Posted by mabraham View Post
    The dynamics of the situation are not just on a physical level. But a physics graduate might have trouble looking beyond the physical.
    Again, assumptions on your part, and wrong. You're right, there are non-physical elements to the dynamics of dance, but they're not relevant to the discussion at hand... which is how to deal with follows gripping with their thumbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mabraham View Post
    All mabraham needs to do when he's yanked is to step forwards. This protects him from harm and keeps the dance going. Once his partner, be she elderly and fat or young and slim, realises that tugging his arm causes him to step closer there is a good chance that she'll do everything she can to keep him at a distance and stop tugging
    Yeah... if she realises anything is different! If a timbp follow can fail to observe eight consecutive Man Breakthroughs (in another thread), then someone who's drowning their partner's connection seems unlikely to be up to observing that the relative motion between the members of the couple is wholly due to their own movement!
    Last edited by mabraham; 11th-November-2007 at 03:11 AM.

  3. #83
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Again, just let go of the hand - simple.
    There comes a point where you must make a connection to be able to lead.

    I did a lot a moves where the connection was my hand on her shoulder blade. (Actually, it amazed me just how much of a dance I can lead without a hand-hand connection.)

  4. #84
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    ess the most obvious technique I use is not to lead unknown or inexperienced partners into large travelling-return type slotted moves in the first place
    Can I misinterpret that as saying more advanced dancers dance slotted? Please?

  5. #85
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    There comes a point where you must make a connection to be able to lead.
    Well, yeah - at the start of the dance, in fact. But you don't need a handhold to lead.

    Having said all that, I reckon that using body leads to avoid gripping is like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly - it's probably easier just to use moves that don't require much handholding (as said previously) - sways, baskets, walkarounds, that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I did a lot a moves where the connection was my hand on her shoulder blade. (Actually, it amazed me just how much of a dance I can lead without a hand-hand connection.)
    Indeed. DavidB's the best I've ever seen at doing this sort of thing, watching him dance is an education in itself.

  6. #86
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Can I misinterpret that as saying more advanced dancers dance slotted? Please?
    Why not - everyone else does.

  7. #87
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    According to Newton's Third Law, when I apply a force from my hand to my partner's hand there is an equal and opposite force from her hand on mine.

    "Matching tension" is partly about matching my partner's internal frame, and partly about allowing my partner to control the force in our handhold. It's not about making sure that Newton's Third Law holds. This is a shame, because following fundamental laws of physics is quite easy.

  8. #88
    Registered User mabraham's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    According to Newton's Third Law, when I apply a force from my hand to my partner's hand there is an equal and opposite force from her hand on mine.
    Yep, and that's true even if you're dancing with a blow-up doll.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    "Matching tension" is partly about matching my partner's internal frame, and partly about allowing my partner to control the force in our handhold. It's not about making sure that Newton's Third Law holds. This is a shame, because following fundamental laws of physics is quite easy.
    What happens between the partnership depends also on the force she applies, for which there is also an equal and opposite reaction from you. The net of these forces, relative to the dancers masses, determines the acceleration that results. Your frame determines how much of the force you allow to re-shape your arm, and how much goes into moving your centre. No frame, arm goes flying. Too much frame and you get jerky motion (unless the lead is a god), because there's no damping by the elbow and shoulder.

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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    According to Newton's Third Law, when I apply a force from my hand to my partner's hand there is an equal and opposite force from her hand on mine.

    "Matching tension" is partly about matching my partner's internal frame, and partly about allowing my partner to control the force in our handhold. It's not about making sure that Newton's Third Law holds. This is a shame, because following fundamental laws of physics is quite easy.
    This clearly also covers "when a lady's finger is pressing hard on your hand, causing you various amounts of pain" then secretly your hand is actually just as forceful to her finger, causing her similar amounts pain. They clearly must have some M stray going with the S.

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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I've met a few dancers who are clearly not beginners, but still have crab-like grips.

    [...]

    For these reasons, I find it easier just to avoid dancing with people who I know will grip me and hurt me.
    I am only a beginner, and I've already decided to stop dancing with one person because she grips, twists and tries to lead. To survive the dance I started leading with one finger.

    (If the gripping were the only problem I'd probably cope with it; unfortunately my set of 8-9 beginner moves clearly bored her and she tried leading me into intermediate moves I've never learned. As I've also never learned to follow..)

    Regarding yanking, I don't actually mind it most of the time. I treat it as a lesson to avoid taking such large steps, stay closer to my partner and give her fewer excuses to create a gap. That said, I do feel guilty for mentioning to one partner tonight that she was causing me pain as she leaned back after a shoulder drop (3-4 times in a row, during the lesson).

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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    That said, I do feel guilty for mentioning to one partner tonight that she was causing me pain as she leaned back after a shoulder drop (3-4 times in a row, during the lesson).
    I wouldn't feel guilty - that move at that point is very similar to a lot of martial arts shoulder lock/break moves: you are putting yourself in the mercy of your partner.

    Rule No1 of MJ - don't hurt your partner. Applies to both leads and follows - if anyone is breaking this rule, then they should be informed.


    Shoulder drop: (I think this is right? been a while)
    R-R hold, Turn the follower, turn yourself and drop the follower's hand on your right shoulder, Extend arm to right about waist level (follower moves side-ways to follow hand), return to shoulder, release and step forward while offering left behind, pull through to the left while stepping back.

    Tips:
    - If you keep your palm forward (or even angled towards the floor slightly) on the extension, you can use your elbow joint in the direction it is designed to, which means that your shoulder does not take all the pressure.
    - You can also try decelerating during the extension so that you gently come to the end of your extension just in time to do the next bit.
    - On the return, you could also try moving yourself side-ways to meet your partner rather than trying to lead them back.
    - When offering behind, keep the hand low and don't seek the follower's hand - let them find yours; if they step too far back, they will have to reach/miss rather than pull at your arm.

  12. #92
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Nothing wrong with that - fingertip leading is a perfectly acceptable alternative, especially in those circumstances.
    I agree BUT last Sunday I danced with a guy, who was doing everything right 'except,' I didn't like the way his fingers 'just about' curled enough at the tips to allow me anything to get hold of

    the problem was, there was no fluidity with how our hands came into contact.

    I always prefer the guy to aim for, just above my wrist, then allow our hands to drift into each others.
    Its the same after an inside turn, if the guy maintains contact, across my shoulder and down my arm, there's no chance he's going to miss it... which is what kept happening on Sunday.
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    Registered User Dottie's Avatar
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    Re: Can I have my hand back please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post

    I always prefer the guy to aim for, just above my wrist, then allow our hands to drift into each others.
    I know what you mean.
    It does tend to be the confident guys that do this in my experience, so maybe it has more to do with that. Not sure.

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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I wouldn't feel guilty - that move at that point is very similar to a lot of martial arts shoulder lock/break moves: you are putting yourself in the mercy of your partner.
    All feelings of guilt vanished completely today, as I woke up with a sore shoulder which spread down the arm and up my neck as the day progressed. (No, it's not a heart attack, although the symptoms are comically similar)

    Thank you for the tips - I'll see if I can remember them mid-move and help make things smoother.

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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I always prefer the guy to aim for, just above my wrist, then allow our hands to drift into each others.
    I know what you mean.
    It does tend to be the confident guys that do this in my experience, so maybe it has more to do with that. Not sure.
    I'm glad you feel like that.
    For me it's just that if I aim for anywhere between elbow and wrist, your hand will slide into mine shortly after, but if I aim purely at your hand there's a chance we'll miss and break the flow.


    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    All feelings of guilt vanished completely today, as I woke up with a sore shoulder which spread down the arm and up my neck as the day progressed. (No, it's not a heart attack, although the symptoms are comically similar).
    although, mine is purely because I kept getting a "she goes-he goes" variation wrong in a Lindy Hop class last night.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Leading without using fingers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    For me it's just that if I aim for anywhere between elbow and wrist, your hand will slide into mine shortly after, but if I aim purely at your hand there's a chance we'll miss and break the flow.
    Exactly!
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