Can I have my hand back please?

[Keefy]

I've never had a yanking injury. Not while dancing anyway.

..some lines are just too good to miss

[David Bailey]

I was referring to finger twisting/gripping in the OP.

Heh, you'll never get very far in this place is you assume we pay attention to the actual topic....

But OK, you said:

Always a sticking point with beginners but what do when someone is gripping you for dear life and you don't want to run the risk of offending or upsetting them by highlighting a seemingly minor detail in their minds.

So, why not just, you know, let go and lead some other way? Seems like the obvious solution.

Again, you're the leader, you control the dance - you'd have to be a masochist to put up with that sort of thing.

[robd]

As much as possible, if my partner pulls my hand, I follow it. Then I don't get hurt.
Also, I try not to let my arm go straight, so my shoulder is always protected.
A light lead doesn't mean having no frame.

lead (and weight thereof) seems to be getting confused with frame (our protection from excessive force) by some posters in this thread.

[Whitebeard]

This sets Harry Chapin's 'Could You put Your Light on Please' ringing through my head.

Wouldn't mind dancing to that.

[DavidY]

So, why not just, you know, let go and lead some other way? Seems like the obvious solution.

What techniques are there for leading a "gripper" without them being able to grab your fingers?

I was caught by someone tonight (as suggested probably an Intermediate, firmly ensconsed in the gripping habit, rather than a Beginner) and spent most of the dance trying to evade her grip but she spent most of it trying to re-establish it.

As I had a sore finger it's the grip itself which was painful, irrespective of any yanking (which I didn't notice as being a problem in this case).

[mabraham]

This post shows that mabraham has very little idea of the dynamics of the situation. Tension is only there if you let it be there. The only reason that there is a lot of tension is because you meet somebody's tension with an equal and opposite force. Of course the person opposite you has to make the mistake of applying too much tension. But you, as an experienced dancer, do not have to meet that tension and apply and equal force in the opposite direction.

OK, so I'll apply my three years of university physics to the dynamics, since I have little idea . If the dancers are moving symmetrically in an accordion-like fashion away from their combined centre of mass (which will be about where the hands are connected), then, yes, by the assumption that they are moving symmetrically then the force each person is applying through their arm is equal and opposite. However if one partner applies more tension than the other, then their motion will not be symmetric. At the very least, one partner's arm(s) must move towards the one applying more tension. If the partner providing less tension preserves their frame, then the partner exerting the stronger force will induce them to step away a shorter distance. In extremis, you get led to step forward. Thus, stepping forward deliberately is a classic defence mechanism to this sort of thing. If you're stepping forward as well, then you do not have to supply as much tension to preserve the connection.

So I, "as an experienced dancer, do not have to meet that tension", apparently. That gives me three options... release and hope to give an object lesson, or give less tension, have my frame forcibly deformed, and risk getting hurt, or step forward to neutralize. Now if they're gripping my hand, then I don't have the release option... and this was the original problem I described. So I'm not seeing how patronising my "idea of the dynamics" is helping the discussion.

If somebody is pulling too hard for you the advice is to give your hand away or chase after it, not pull back harder than you find comfortable.

That, we agree on

[Tiggerbabe]

What techniques are there for leading a "gripper" without them being able to grab your fingers?

Try to lead them without using their hand at all, use their wrist, shoulders, hips, waist, back etc ..........Franck's the master at this, maybe he should do a Focus workshop?

[timbp]

It's really difficult to see how an experienced leader can suffer too many yanking injuries. Followers, yes - but leaders control the dance. One obvious solution if you find a yanker is to always use a Manhattan (step forward rather than back) a lot - actually I do that a lot anyway.

I would probably have agreed with this until last Monday.

A friend I had not heard of in months said she was going to a particular venue. After deciding to give up on my assignment, I decided to go to the venue.

I had the worst dance in my life with this woman. And I felt in serious danger of being injured. I did not lead moves that might hurt me. Furthermore, noting the suggestion that people tend to give heavier leads in response to a heavier connection, I tried to give a lighter connection.
In response my partner, while yanking on my arm, said, "You used to have a stronger lead".

[Andy McGregor]

Admittedly, they've tended to be older, larger, fairly inexperienced and using too much tension to boot, but I feel I can keep myself safer if I know I can control where my hand is.

OK, so I'll apply my three years of university physics to the dynamics, since I have little idea .

mabraham must have spent none of the time on his degree course learning about tact - or the use of capital letters.

OK, so I'll apply my three years of university physics to the dynamics, So I'm not seeing how patronising my "idea of the dynamics" is helping the discussion.

Very much like an all embracing, and IMHO, incorrect, suggestion that old, fat beginners are worse than any other kind of beginner. Anybody who criticises a whole group of, probably lovely and definitely sensitive, people deserves to be patronised

The dynamics of the situation are not just on a physical level. But a physics graduate might have trouble looking beyond the physical. All mabraham needs to do when he's yanked is to step forwards. This protects him from harm and keeps the dance going. Once his partner, be she elderly and fat or young and slim, realises that tugging his arm causes him to step closer there is a good chance that she'll do everything she can to keep him at a distance and stop tugging

[David Bailey]

What techniques are there for leading a "gripper" without them being able to grab your fingers?

Not giving them your hand to hold seems the obvious alternative

Either body leads, or leads without handholds (wrist, waist leads, that sort of thing). MJ doesn't have to be led by a hand-to-hand connection, after all.

EDIT: Blast, Tiggerbabe's beaten me to it. Oh well, what she said, basically.

As I had a sore finger it's the grip itself which was painful, irrespective of any yanking (which I didn't notice as being a problem in this case).

In that case, I'd recommend simply saying you've got a sore finger beforehand. I was dancing with a girl last night who had (I think) a broken finger - I simply didn't touch it, and we had a couple of lovely dances.

[David Bailey]

OK, so I'll apply my three years of university physics to the dynamics..,

Paging David Franklin.
Come in please, David Franklin?

I would probably have agreed with this until last Monday.

A friend I had not heard of in months said she was going to a particular venue. After deciding to give up on my assignment, I decided to go to the venue.

I had the worst dance in my life with this woman. And I felt in serious danger of being injured. I did not lead moves that might hurt me. Furthermore, noting the suggestion that people tend to give heavier leads in response to a heavier connection, I tried to give a lighter connection.
In response my partner, while yanking on my arm, said, "You used to have a stronger lead".

Again, just let go of the hand - simple.

[David Franklin]

Paging David Franklin.
Come in please, David Franklin?

Actually, I'd largely agree with mabraham on the physics side of things; I'm just more aware that it's unlikely to be a fruitful line of discussion here.

Bottom line on the physics: if the follow is pulling you with a lot of tension, you have 3 choices. Apply equal force back, let them pull you forwards, or let go.

[David Bailey]

Bottom line on the physics: if the follow is pulling you with a lot of tension, you have 3 choices. Apply equal force back, let them pull you forwards, or let go.

I was thinking a bit about this when dancing last night (as you do), and wondering why this isn't a problem for me. So, I think what I normally do as an unconscious precaution is to either not step back (giving elasticity) or to step forwards, when leading the lady back.

But I still think that a reasonably experienced lead should be able to assess their partner's style, level and any potential problems, within a few seconds - and it's then just a matter of compensating and adjusting.

[David Franklin]

I was thinking a bit about this when dancing last night (as you do), and wondering why this isn't a problem for me. So, I think what I normally do as an unconscious precaution is to either not step back (giving elasticity) or to step forwards, when leading the lady back.

I've got to be honest, I mainly apply equal force - the only thing I find a problem is when the woman doesn't apply tension during the step back, but is still relying on you to stop her. Because then what stops her is when her arm/shoulder reach full extension, and that really does create a big jolt.

[David Bailey]

I've got to be honest, I mainly apply equal force - the only thing I find a problem is when the woman doesn't apply tension during the step back, but is still relying on you to stop her. Because then what stops her is when her arm/shoulder reach full extension, and that really does create a big jolt.

The more I think about what I do, the more confused I get as to what I do...

I guess the most obvious technique I use is not to lead unknown or inexperienced partners into large travelling-return type slotted moves in the first place, so you don't have to compensate for them. It's difficult to yank if you're being led into walkarounds, baskets and so on.

[DavidY]

Try to lead them without using their hand at all, use their wrist, shoulders, hips, waist, back etc ..........Franck's the master at this, maybe he should do a Focus workshop?

In this case I was thinking of myself . I've heard Franck recommend wrist leading in a previous workshop I've done, but don't actually know how to do it (not well anyway) and I've certainly not practised it. Is there a specific workshop on this? Failing that I probably need to find a willing vict... partner to practise on.

But I do wonder how people (especially new-ish intermediates) would react if some stranger starts refusing to hold their hands, counter to everything else they've experienced in their time in MJ?

In that case, I'd recommend simply saying you've got a sore finger beforehand.

I probably should've said "injured" finger in my original post (it was late... ); it's a long term injury which only causes problems when I get "gripped", and isn't fixable anytime soon. Telling everyone I ever dance with (for the foreseeable future) that I have a finger injury sounds like a lot of work, especially as it's only a small proportion of dancers that cause pain.

[Gadget]

What techniques are there for leading a "gripper" without them being able to grab your fingers?

As has been said, Franck is the king of connection - his theory is basically that all you need is a connection with your partner and you can lead. Most of the time this connection is physical through the hands, but you can move your connection to apply it to the back of the hand/wrist rather than the fingers, or the shoulder, or anywhere else... that won't get you slapped... then again

If the follower is a 'gripper', then using stuff like this will probably panic them to start with: most of the reason for 'gripping' is fear of letting go and trusting you - if you use this technique, you need to start by gripping them and providing a secure connection; the main difference here is that you are in control, not them. After they trust you a bit more, you can start lightening up and loosening off.

for followers like this I normally resort to lots of baskets, sways, shoulder leads, free-spins and stuff that minimises actual hand to hand contact. When they try to grip, I move the contact to the last digit of my fingers and apply 'virtual grease' to slip them off when they try to squish me.

[Franck]

In this case I was thinking of myself . I've heard Franck recommend wrist leading in a previous workshop I've done, but don't actually know how to do it (not well anyway) and I've certainly not practised it. Is there a specific workshop on this? Failing that I probably need to find a willing vict... partner to practise on.

As I've mentioned before, I have rarely had a problem with any kind of 'grippers' and using other body parts (top or side of the hand, wrist, shoulder, hip, back, etc.) makes a huge difference, but is only treating the symptoms. As Gadget says, the main reason dancers grip are connected to fear, so the best thing to do is to adapt your style to reassure them and provide them with more connection (albeit not a gripping kind).
A lot of my dancing involves creating extra connection points and using them to lead my partner in a way that leaves her no doubt she is following correctly. As soon as they feel reassured they are following you, most followers relax into the dance and the need for gripping disappears.

As DavidJames mentions, dancing in a close (not blues) hold rather than open-hold and following your partner rather than stepping away will also help.

I would also agree with MartinHarper (and Robd) that the best way to protect yourself from 'yanking' is to remain connected (inner frame) and follow your hand; it also means that your partner is aware of your mass, weight-distribution and momentum at all time and needs less effort and magnitude in leading.

I'm working on a workshop on defensive dancing: "Protect yourself, your partner and other dancers on the floor!" for one of my upcoming Focus classes.

[DavidY]

As Gadget says, the main reason dancers grip are connected to fear, so the best thing to do is to adapt your style to reassure them and provide them with more connection (albeit not a gripping kind).

In this case last night it felt like someone gripping out of habit rather than fear. I don't think I was doing anything particularly scary.

I can also think of people who I'm pretty sure are not scared of me in any way, but still grip determinedly.

Having said that, as soon as someone starts to cause pain I will try and escape their grip - which probably isn't very reassuring - but I'm not sure they'd be reassured if I started holding them by the wrist either, especially if I'm a stranger to them.

I'm working on a workshop on defensive dancing: "Protect yourself, your partner and other dancers on the floor!" for one of my upcoming Focus classes.

That sounds like a really useful workshop. I could be tempted to come up for that one if it was part of a weekend & I knew the date sufficiently far in advance to plan...

(I noticed DJ's thread about DVDs - but this particular one feels like something that would benefit from practising with people who knew what I was trying to do, rather than trying on unsuspecting folk at random freestyles.)

[Franck]

In this case last night it felt like someone gripping out of habit rather than fear. I don't think I was doing anything particularly scary.

I can also think of people who I'm pretty sure are not scared of me in any way, but still grip determinedly.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were at all scary or intimidating. As you say, what starts as fear / apprehension for a beginner follower can turn into habit. It is possible however to provide extra reassurance, over and above normal levels to allow nervous followers to release their grip on their partner's hand.
Slower music, a multi-point connection (as opposed to a single hand / fingertip connection) will all help.

I know you're a good lead, so it isn't your dancing that worries grippy followers, it's their own self-doubt and fear of making a mess (i.e. not following properly every move they're led through).
The problem can also be compounded in certain venues where there are a lot of fast moving, strong leading move monsters as that type of grip, can sometimes be the only way to keep up with such leads...