Can I have my hand back please?

[StokeBloke]

"Step away from the beginner."

Surely if we all took that advice, we'd all be ex-cerocers?

Where I learned to ceroc, we were actively encouraged to dance with beginners. Are there regional differences of opinion on how beginners should progress?

It was just Andy being 'funny'... he's a funny guy... really... you'll get used to it if you stick around

Also Andy doesn't work for Ceroc, he's a (very skilled) independent teacher. You're right, we all need to take a share in encouraging dancers at the start of their dancing careers. I find tapping the back of the offending hand with a lit cigarette causes them to release their thumbs pretty effectively

[Andy McGregor]

My comment was aimed at somebody who was considering criticising a beginner.

In my experience female beginners grip because they are scared to let go. This means you have done something that scares them. And then you go on to criticise them. THAT kind of help is not what beginners need.

I think it's OK for an experienced dancer to give a single tip. And I think it's OK for an experienced dancer to give advice when asked. But I don't think advice should be critical or off-putting, it should be given in a caring sharing way. Steven666 didn't read like he was doing anything but get annoyed. Here is the post I was responding to..

I might say something in future. It's annoying me too much now.

That kind of "feedback" says more about the person giving it than receiving. As I said, keep away from beginners if you can't stop yourself getting annoyed.

[Andy McGregor]

Also Andy doesn't work for Ceroc, he's a (very skilled) independent teacher. You're right, we all need to take a share in encouraging dancers at the start of their dancing careers. I find tapping the back of the offending hand with a lit cigarette causes them to release their thumbs pretty effectively

Although I don't approve of smoking. I prefer a more clinical approach. The use of the Tazer on "stun" usually releases the death grip. But, you need to take care not to use a higher setting as it might cause the release of the contents of the bladder as well

[NZ Monkey]

Although I don't approve of smoking. I prefer a more clinical approach. The use of the Tazer on "stun" usually releases the death grip. But, you need to take care not to use a higher setting as it might cause the release of the contents of the bladder as well

Plus they're great for leading drops!

One zap and they're plummeting dramatically toward the floor. Just make sure your shoes are a nice thick leather...

[David Bailey]

I find tapping the back of the offending hand with a lit cigarette causes them to release their thumbs pretty effectively

Nah, I reckon the Handlick Maneuver is the best solution.

[Steven666]

My comment was aimed at somebody who was considering criticising a beginner.

In my experience female beginners grip because they are scared to let go. This means you have done something that scares them. And then you go on to criticise them. THAT kind of help is not what beginners need.

I think it's OK for an experienced dancer to give a single tip. And I think it's OK for an experienced dancer to give advice when asked. But I don't think advice should be critical or off-putting, it should be given in a caring sharing way. Steven666 didn't read like he was doing anything but get annoyed. Here is the post I was responding to..
That kind of "feedback" says more about the person giving it than receiving. As I said, keep away from beginners if you can't stop yourself getting annoyed.

I get annoying but don't show it at all. I far to nice for my own good to do that. I might let them know gently like I have started to suggest for beginners not to permently look at the stage while in the class. Normal advice where I am. I have tact. Believe me.

[David Franklin]

I get annoying but don't show it at all. I far to nice for my own good to do that. I might let them know gently like I have started to suggest for beginners not to permently look at the stage while in the class. Normal advice where I am. I have tact. Believe me.

You had me by word three...

{sorry}

[Steven666]

You had me by word three...

{sorry}

LOL!

Ignore my typing skills though. I do know it's a bit shocking.

[timbp]

I get annoying but don't show it at all.

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever read, ever!

[Steven666]

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever read, ever!

Me too.

...ah wait...

[brawBloke]

My advice is to leave the teaching to the teachers. If, with your current skill level, you can not dance with beginners in a way that helps them and protects you from harm you should avoid dancing with beginners. If you criticise their dancing they might not return. If you really want to help a beginner, point them out to one of the teachers or taxi dancers and suggest they offer some coaching. You being annoyed should not become a problem for beginners.

Step away from the beginner.

Sorry Andy, but I'm beginning to wonder if you live in the real world!

Are you suggesting that beginners wears a fluorecent T shirt with the word "BEGINNER" on it, so that non beginners can avoid them? Or that experienced dancers wear a T shirt saying "I'M EXPERIENCED. PLEASE DON'T ASK ME TO DANCE IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER." so that they can avoid us?

Or when they ask us to dance, should we say "NO YOU ARE A BEGINNER.", please dance with a taxi or another beginner?

[David Bailey]

Sorry Andy, but I'm beginning to wonder if you live in the real world!

You can stop wondering - he clearly doesn't live in the real world. In fact, I don't believe he exists. Or was that me?

Are you suggesting that beginners wears a fluorecent T shirt with the word "BEGINNER" on it, so that non beginners can avoid them?

Ironically enough, isn't that "I'm a Beginner" thing what some Ceroc venues do with the pink badges or whatever they are?

Or that experienced dancers wear a T shirt saying "I'M EXPERIENCED. PLEASE DON'T ASK ME TO DANCE IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER." so that they can avoid us?

Or when they ask us to dance, should we say "NO YOU ARE A BEGINNER.", please dance with a taxi or another beginner?

I think you're over-generalising Andy's advice.

Mind you, I think Andy's probably making a lot of assumptions about Mr 666, so it probably evens out or something.

I'm an experienced dancer, but I don't volunteer advice in social dancing. In fact, I go out of my way not to offer advice. I simply try to provide my partner with the best and most enjoyable dance I can. Funnily enough, the more experience I've accumulated, the easier it is to do this with a partner of any level.

That means dancing appropriately to the level of my partner - like most experienced dancers, it takes me about 3 seconds to determine her level. It means never confusing her, never critiqueing her during a dance, and never getting annoyed

But I don't try to teach them, or to tell them what they're doing "wrong".

If anything, beginners are easier for me to dance with than bloody intermediates, who epitomise the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Beginners don't anticipate, they don't try to backlead, they don't have preconceived notions, they don't try to overstyle or hijack... Beginners, by and large, are great.

[mabraham]

What do you do in such an occasion?

Ask them to not use their thumbs. I've had my shoulders injured too many times by followers not to do this. Admittedly, they've tended to be older, larger, fairly inexperienced and using too much tension to boot, but I feel I can keep myself safer if I know I can control where my hand is.

Sometimes a graphic demonstration of what might happen to their thumb in a Figure-of-Eight, or shoulder in a Pretzel, should they be gripping at an erroneous time can be an effective tool.

[mabraham]

I think the LAST thing you should be doing is talking to them verbally, talk to them by touch at all times

If they're a beginner, they're probably not yet used to tactile communication... they are used to verbal communication (unless deaf, of course).

Even if they can feel you're trying to give them a message, they might not work out what it is... they might just assume you're a fruitcake, right?

Then you should consider the fact that different people have different strengths in the way they learn. Some do it by reading, some by listening, others by doing, etc. I think you should give them as many of those paths to learning as you can!

[Minnie M]

Ask them to not use their thumbs. I've had my shoulders injured too many times by followers not to do this. Admittedly, they've tended to be older, larger, fairly inexperienced and using too much tension to boot, but I feel I can keep myself safer if I know I can control where my hand is........

really grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Welcome Mark (just seen your post on the 'other' UK forum) - may be true with some big ladies in Australia - but the larger ladies over here are no different (there is a thread on this somewhere - harperlink please) - the only general problem we may have is lifts or drops

[David Bailey]

really grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Actually, I've had much less yankage from the larger ladies, thinking about it, than normal - certainly they don't use their weight in that way in general. And certainly, if my partner doesn't move where I want her to, I won't waste energy trying to pull her in that direction.

Age, of course, is completely immaterial.

Beginners don't yank anyway, its bloody-intermediates who do.

[Steven666]

Ask them to not use their thumbs. I've had my shoulders injured too many times by followers not to do this.

That bad? I haven't hurt myself but once or twice had my fingers slightly twisted in places they didn't want to go but they don't affect my shoulders. I arm is too relaxed in those instances to let that happen.

Admittedly, they've tended to be older, larger, fairly inexperienced and using too much tension to boot, but I feel I can keep myself safer if I know I can control where my hand is.

I usually find it the opposite. The smaller followers overall show to much tension (heavy to lead) than the "larger" as you put it. The heaviest leads I have ever had have been from tiny ladies. As for older, I'm trying not to agree but I might just have to (overall on average speaking compare to younger followers).

Sometimes a graphic demonstration of what might happen to their thumb in a Figure-of-Eight, or shoulder in a Pretzel, should they be gripping at an erroneous time can be an effective tool.

Not a bad idea that isn't. Might try it if I have to.

[mabraham]

That bad? I haven't hurt myself but once or twice had my fingers slightly twisted in places they didn't want to go but they don't affect my shoulders. I arm is too relaxed in those instances to let that happen.

Well that's part of the problem... I use a light lead (and get purred over for it) and that means that a follow with plenty of weight, who's either stepping too far or connecting too forcefully can yank my arm straight, and my shoulder with it. If the follow is gripping as well, that just means I don't have the defense of straightening my fingers and leaving her to fly off and learn a lesson.

I don't think it's a case of me being a fragile fairy, either In two decades of soccer (sorry, football), I've had a total of two sprained ankles, both of them from kicking the ball at the same time as the opponent.

I usually find it the opposite. The smaller followers overall show to much tension (heavy to lead) than the "larger" as you put it. The heaviest leads I have ever had have been from tiny ladies. As for older, I'm trying not to agree but I might just have to (overall on average speaking compare to younger followers).

Of course, there's plenty of blame to go around for the leads too... if they're routinely presented with forceful leads, then follows will use lots of tension in self-defence.

at stupid men!

[Steven666]

Well that's part of the problem... I use a light lead (and get purred over for it) and that means that a follow with plenty of weight, who's either stepping too far or connecting too forcefully can yank my arm straight, and my shoulder with it. If the follow is gripping as well, that just means I don't have the defense of straightening my fingers and leaving her to fly off and learn a lesson.

I use a light lead to. But if I do get yanked out of place like that then I will instantly use a bit more placed tension/guidance. But I don't really like doing that if I can help it.

Has anyone actually hit the floor because of that though? I just release to a single finger hold, fingertips if possible to give them the idea to have nothing to grip on. It does sometimes work.

I don't think it's a case of me being a fragile fairy, either In two decades of soccer (sorry, football), I've had a total of two sprained ankles, both of them from kicking the ball at the same time as the opponent.

I did that once. It wrecks.

Of course, there's plenty of blame to go around for the leads too... if they're routinely presented with forceful leads, then follows will use lots of tension in self-defence.

Too true. Yet I'm sure many people don't actually realise how "heavy" they dance unless people tell them, which rarely happens. I was asked once if I thought they were a heavy lead as someone had said they were. But only once.

at stupid men!

[Gav]

I don't think it's a case of me being a fragile fairy, either In two decades of soccer (sorry, football), I've had a total of two sprained ankles

Oooo you big, butch, tough-guy, you