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Thread: Masterclasses at weekenders

  1. #21
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    (1) If the masterclasses become seen as "what an advanced dancer does at a weekender", then they will be massively oversubscribed. 'Cos everyone thinks they're advanced...
    I disagree. The people who think that they are advanced (in the main) don't go to things like classes. So, if it's aimed at those people, you'll only see Gus in there!

    Personally, I do think that it's a good idea. My main worry would be how it's administered. In theory, if the idea takes off, the people who want to do that sort of thing, will make sure that they are there at 3pm on the Friday and sign up. After 50 people have arrived, the masterclasses could all be full! So, maybe there needs to be some thought put in on how to make the sign-up fair, so that (for example) the teacher who can't take Friday off work, and lives 300 miles away, so can't get there before 10pm, has a chance to sign up too. God alone knows how!

  2. #22
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I disagree. The people who think that they are advanced (in the main) don't go to things like classes.
    No, that's the people who thought they were advanced a year ago... I remember full well back at the Jive Bar, there'd be people coming back from Camber saying they'd gone to all the advanced classes, even though they were a long way from being even competent intermediates.

    My main worry would be how it's administered.
    It's that details thing again, isn't it...?

    In theory, if the idea takes off, the people who want to do that sort of thing, will make sure that they are there at 3pm on the Friday and sign up.
    My feeling is it would be better to allow booking beforehand, with payment also required beforehand. But basically any approach other than a lottery is going to have people feeling it's unfair for one reason or other, and a lottery has certain other obvious problems.

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    My feeling is it would be better to allow booking beforehand, with payment also required beforehand. But basically any approach other than a lottery is going to have people feeling it's unfair for one reason or other, and a lottery has certain other obvious problems.
    So you'll have the same situation (for women) as the share with a stranger... if you don't book up within 30 minutes of the bookings being available (if it's done online), you miss out.

    Here's one to chew over... what about a smaller weekender aimed at advanced dancers? With advanced workshops? In a conference centre with lots of smaller rooms for workshops with temporary flooring?

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    So you'll have the same situation (for women) as the share with a stranger... if you don't book up within 30 minutes of the bookings being available (if it's done online), you miss out.

    Here's one to chew over... what about a smaller weekender aimed at advanced dancers? With advanced workshops? In a conference centre with lots of smaller rooms for workshops with temporary flooring?
    I think Minnie was discussing something along those lines some time ago. Mixed feeling really.


    Right, now I really have to do some work

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    So you'll have the same situation (for women) as the share with a stranger... if you don't book up within 30 minutes of the bookings being available (if it's done online), you miss out.

    Here's one to chew over... what about a smaller weekender aimed at advanced dancers? With advanced workshops? In a conference centre with lots of smaller rooms for workshops with temporary flooring?
    Well it's funny you should say that.......

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    So you'll have the same situation (for women) as the share with a stranger... if you don't book up within 30 minutes of the bookings being available (if it's done online), you miss out.

    Here's one to chew over... what about a smaller weekender aimed at advanced dancers? With advanced workshops? In a conference centre with lots of smaller rooms for workshops with temporary flooring?
    There's a discussion of this here:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/l...weekender.html

    Worth reading through, I think.

    As I recall, it foundered on the "selection" area - in other words, the age-old question of what is an advanced dancer.

  7. #27
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Its all very well having Masterclasses and limiting the numbers but really you'd need to limit them still further or increase the time (maybe it was increased?) to make it worthwhile.

    If its 'stand and watch the teacher' then a smaller class doesn't have that much advantage over a larger one. Though the enormous 'move 20 ladies on' classes are a bit extreme.

    If its 'get some individual feedback from the teacher' - then there is limited time for a teacher to teach a class and give some feedback to 28 people in 60 mins. Yes, the teacher can get more of an idea of common problems the class might be having and address those but ideally for some feedback you'd need a max of 20 people and 2 hours of a class.

    If I want focus and some feedback - I go to a specialist workshop for 2 hours or so, or book a private lesson.

    If I want smaller classes on a weekender - I go to a smaller weekend - there are plenty on offer.

    But at the big 1000-1500 people weekenders - I mainly want freestyle. I might do some big classes where I watch the teacher, I might do those fixed so that I can practice later with someone - I'll still learn from watching and listening despite the large size. I might book a private or small group private (and the one DJ referred to was if I recall only 8 people, which meant yes, we did get individual feedback from the teachers).

    You can't make these weekenders all things to all people. You can't have lots of smaller classes, and lots of people, and plenty of daytime freestyling, there are limits to venue space, time constraints etc.

    What might be worth doing is have a teacher run a large 'anyone along' class - then have a follow up Masterclass on the same area - but with limited nos and extra cost. Then those who want to learn a bit get to do a class, and those who want to take the same material to the next level pay a bit more and do the 'focus' follow on Masterclass.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    You can't make these weekenders all things to all people. You can't have lots of smaller classes, and lots of people, and plenty of daytime freestyling, there are limits to venue space, time constraints etc.
    Well, whilst it's true you can't keep on adding stuff - at some point you run out of space - there's still a lot of room for additions in my opinion.

    Maybe some of these additions would mean removing a class or 2, but you'd still have dozens left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    What might be worth doing is have a teacher run a large 'anyone along' class - then have a follow up Masterclass on the same area - but with limited nos and extra cost. Then those who want to learn a bit get to do a class, and those who want to take the same material to the next level pay a bit more and do the 'focus' follow on Masterclass.
    Yes - that's sort of why I referred to the large classes as tasters.

    For example, Anton and Erin did a cha-cha class at SP last year. 400 people, and a complete waste of time for most of us.

    But, if the class had been marketed as "Chacha taster", with 3 or 4 extra follow-on masterclasses, with 20 people at (say) £10 a head, I bet they'd have been mobbed, and got some nice extra income into the bargain. The masterclasses wouldn't need to be different, they could teach the same thing 4 times...

  9. #29
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Just a small point. Somewhere the point has been raised that these masterclassess will get swamped out with the early arrivals. I accept its a risk .. but this wasn't my experience this weekend. I booked onto Lucky/Ruby's first workshop late on Friday, and was only the third person to book. I know some of the workshops sold out, but I'm not sure that there was a huge stampede. Maybe the appeal to the masses has been overestimated?

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    I think that Ceroc get loads of flack about only being interested in beginner dancers. They are accused of not supplying anything for the more advanced dancers, they pack 'em through the door and leave them high and dry after six-twelve months is the usual charge.

    I think these smaller master classes are a brilliant step in the right direction for Ceroc. Rather than watching dancers they have brought into the scene, and trained drift off to AT or heaven forbid Jive Addiction events for a more challenging and fulfilling evening, they are now providing a third tier of teaching. Something for intermediate dancers to aspire to. Without inspiration we all start to stagnate! I know some people have complained about the astronomically expensive £5 charge levied to have an intimate lesson with world champion dancers.... but in reality this really is a 'token' payment to show you're serious about attending the class in my view.

    Hopefully there will be masterclass style workshops at every weekender! Great idea

  11. #31
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I think these smaller master classes are a brilliant step in the right direction for Ceroc. Rather than watching dancers they have brought into the scene, and trained drift off to AT or heaven forbid Jive Addiction events for a more challenging and fulfilling evening, they are now providing a third tier of teaching. Something for intermediate dancers to aspire to.
    Down South a number of clubs have offered Advanced classes (in addition to the standard Refresher and Intermediate class) for some time. I known some of Annalisa's clubs did and I think Greenwich use to. Seemed to be well received but must add a fair bit to the cost base of the club, needing an additional teacher and an additional room.

    Actually, why do we need masterclasses at weekenders? If Jo Public would put his hand in his pocket we could go back to the days when we used to be able to run local 'Masterclasses' ... think they were called workshops A few years back I'd run 3 or 4 a year with the likes of Viktor, N&N, Amir. Fat chance of making that pay these days

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I know some people have complained about the astronomically expensive £5 charge levied to have an intimate lesson with world champion dancers.... but in reality this really is a 'token' payment to show you're serious about attending the class in my view.
    I would have no problem with the extra £5.

    For those who did the classes, what did you feel was different in the classes as compared to a larger class. Don't just say 'size' because I'd like to know what the difference the size made. (And 'rotation' isn't an issue as you can do a large class fixed partners if you choose to.)

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    So do you think it might be a good idea to have a reduced overall price and get people to pay for the lessons seperately?
    Worked at the Grand Nationals. Most people were there for social dancing and the competitions, though. I'd guess about a quarter of the people who went attended a lesson. It did mean less chatting and more seriousness in the lessons. Though these folks were West Coasters, so they may just have been that dull.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I think that Ceroc get loads of flack about only being interested in beginner dancers. They are accused of not supplying anything for the more advanced dancers, they pack 'em through the door and leave them high and dry after six-twelve months is the usual charge.
    Well, that's mainly because it's true - with a few honourable exceptions of course.

    However:
    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I think these smaller master classes are a brilliant step in the right direction for Ceroc. Rather than watching dancers they have brought into the scene, and trained drift off to AT or heaven forbid Jive Addiction events for a more challenging and fulfilling evening, they are now providing a third tier of teaching. Something for intermediate dancers to aspire to. Without inspiration we all start to stagnate! I know some people have complained about the astronomically expensive £5 charge levied to have an intimate lesson with world champion dancers.... but in reality this really is a 'token' payment to show you're serious about attending the class in my view.
    Absolutely.

    Ceroc / MJ dancers are used to cheap classes - and, by and large, they get what they pay for. If you want to learn properly - if you're intererested in advanced classes - then you should be prepared to pay for the privilege.

    One guy I know spent literally thousands of pounds learning Tango - two private classes a week for 6 months. Compared to that, £5 looks pretty trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Hopefully there will be masterclass style workshops at every weekender! Great idea
    As the Father Of The Masterclass, I wholeheartedly agree

  15. #35
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    ...

    Actually, why do we need masterclasses at weekenders? If Jo Public would put his hand in his pocket we could go back to the days when we used to be able to run local 'Masterclasses' ... think they were called workshops A few years back I'd run 3 or 4 a year with the likes of Viktor, N&N, Amir. Fat chance of making that pay these days
    • For me the biggest advantage of 'masterclass' style classes at a weekender (of course provided they don't crowd out other more sorely needed classes ), is the low overhead.

      If I go to a 4 hour workshop, I've got the overhead of preparing to dance, travelling to the venue, and travelling back.

      Being in the middle of the day it pretty much wipes out the day. For a masterclass the overhead is walking over from a chalet or the previous class - not much over 5 mins for a 1 hr class.

      Of course the overhead would be lower if there were local workshops. AFAIK as you say the don't appear to be viable locally.


    • The second advantage is the finer granularity. I don't always want to do a 4 hour workshop on a subject, but the overhead makes anything less than a 3/4 hour workshop non viable.


    • The third advantage is many more people to partner with who magically are available to dance on those days. Locally the pool possibilities are likely to be limited. Also there is many more people to try out what you've learnt with and see if it works.


    • The fourth reason is it should be efficient to create a quality video record of the class, as there is already the infrastructure for the creation and sales of videos.

  16. #36
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    ...
    My basic premises are:
    - Large 400-strong classes are essentially near-useless except as tasters.
    ...
    Serveral people have said here weekender classes are pretty useless, and that seems to be generally taken as a given. It is nice to see it explicitly listed as a premise.

    I can understand it that for the average relatively advanced forumite they may be.

    But I don't think you can extrapolate that generally.

    I think on average, even being large, they're more useful than local weekly classes. After all going to one weekly class and ~ 5 weekenders a year you could easily spend half your years class time at weekenders.

    • You're more likely to come across new concepts.

    • You have greater variety.

    • They've been relatively carefully prepared by the higher rated teachers

    • There is a video record available

    • The other dancers were serious enough to attend a weekender


    One disadvantage is there is unnecessary variability on rotating and where fixed couples go which wastes time. If only teachers were drilled on conventions before hand.

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Loads of Stuff
    Very well put. There are a number of things (well most of them ) I hadn't thought through. All the more reason for Ceroc to expand the concept? The challenge is, though, that by definition these classes can only be taught by 'Masters', and they are in short supply?

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Just read this, in a speed reading sort of way, so sorry if I missed something.... BUT

    Ceroc Wellington - do a once a year event... All workshops you individually book for, plus you individually book for the evening things.

    It does well, as it is a total sell out, so much so, that they have to find bigger places for next year.

    Most of the classes IMHO, were master classes (as in UK speak, don't get me wrong I am from UK and not having a go).

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    That reminds me, I'm not entirely sure what a masterclass should be, to be honest - anyone want to hazard a definition?

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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But I do think people are being a bit quick to ignore the views of the poster (sorry, don't remember the name) who felt she didn't get a fair chance to participate. What's the adage? "For every 1 who complains, there are 50 who felt the same but didn't speak up".
    I think I was the original poster and you are correct, I did not feel that first come first served at the venue on a Friday is a fair system. I, for one, work school term times and it is very difficult for me to take time off on a Friday in term time. Fortunately, I only live about an hour away from Brean but still did not check in until after 7pm. If it is going to run on a first come first served basis then I would say that bookings should open from say 10am on Saturday morning. Admittedly, I was asleep at that time but it would give everyone a fair shot at booking. For me, weekenders are a great opportunity to either participate in classes of teachers from other areas or countries or watch them. I assumed that I would not be allowed to watch the masterclasses. Maybe I was wrong? I had also expected when I booked Breeze to have a choice of more than one class onto which I did not have to book at any one time during the day. I am not against masterclasses but I want to see them as an addition not a replacement for normal classes.

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