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Thread: Masterclasses at weekenders

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Masterclasses at weekenders

    Moved from the "Breeze aftermath" thread - DavidJames

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And ideally, expand the concept - so have a variety of classes at a variety of prices, ranging from near-privates to small groups to "Ceroc workshop" sizes.

    I also think master classes are a great idea - a real innovation. And yes, I'd hope that Jive Addiction would consider doing something along these lines also.
    So do you think it might be a good idea to have a reduced overall price and get people to pay for the lessons seperately? This would suit me, as long as there was somewhere to freestyle at al times. But I would imagine it would be a major headache to administer.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 17th-October-2007 at 11:59 AM.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Breeze-the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And yes, I'd hope that Jive Addiction would consider doing something along these lines also.
    Heretic! Heretic! Burn him .... BURN HIM etc. etc.

    Oh yeah ... I agree

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Breeze-the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    So do you think it might be a good idea to have a reduced overall price and get people to pay for the lessons seperately?
    Ultimately - yes.

    I've said this before - for example, in this thread:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/l...es-useful.html

    And my quote from here (in February, note) looks kind of prescient :
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    How about a supplementary-charge-based smaller class, of maybe 20 people, each paying a fiver each? CeeCee organised this with Ivan and Natalia (Negracha teachers) last June at Southport, and that was useful - so maybe something like that could be formalised?

    Most of us can't afford 4 private classes at £50 each - but we could probably afford 4 small scale classes at £5 each...
    Cor, I'll just call myself "Father of the masterclasses" from now on

    I'll also quote myself here, from that same thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Progressing my thinking a bit, I would love to see a "pay-per-class" model developed for weekender classes, I think that'd create value, rather than the current situation.

    At the moment, we have a lot of massive "big-name" classes, which - it seems to me - are mainly done for marketing purposes - Joseph and Sadie, Anton and Erin, Vincent and Flavia, and so on.

    They look good on the flyers, and we all like to say "Well, when I did a class with Anton Du Beke..." afterwards.

    But because the cost is packaged into the entire thing, like with all package deals, we don't really get to value individual items, and I think the quality of the classes suffers as a result. There's a good reason why no one praises the quality of food in an "All you can eat" buffet...

    If we assume that an average weekender has 50 classes, with a cost per weekender of (say) £10-15, then of course it's great "value for money". But if you only go to two classes, then you might prefer to pay, say £10 per class to get more individual attention, rather than stomp around in a group of 20 extra women, 200ft from the stage or whatever.

    In Southport, an area like the Blues Room is plenty small enough for a class of 10-20 people - it'd be nice to see some "paying" classes available there...
    I think that's pretty much still my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    This would suit me, as long as there was somewhere to freestyle at al times. But I would imagine it would be a major headache to administer.
    Yes, but you're (hopefully) giving better value to customers, and possibly getting more revenue.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Breeze-the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Most of us can't afford 4 private classes at £50 each - but we could probably afford 4 small scale classes at £5 each...
    I've also been strongly in favour of this idea, but the math someone else did is pretty compelling: 7 classes with 28 participants/class means only about a quarter of people would be able to do even one masterclass.

    It's easy for us (who tend to be pretty well informed and know a lot of the teachers personally) to say "Masterclasses - yeah, great! And if you want to get to go on them, you just need to get your act in gear early". But I can see how a lot of people ended up disappointed. (And in the future, as the need to book early becomes clearer, I suspect we would also find it harder and harder to get on a masterclass). Though the number of people who seem to recoil in horror at the idea of actually paying for a class might counteract that.

    I'm not sure what the answer is.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Breeze-the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I've also been strongly in favour of this idea, but the math someone else did is pretty compelling: 7 classes with 28 participants/class means only about a quarter of people would be able to do even one masterclass.
    Yes, and it's a lot more hassle in terms of administration of course, as Cruella mentioned. You need organisation, you need checks, you need venues, you need teachers, and you need to promote and sell them.

    But then, you've got a captive audience of 1,500+ dancers in a single location, for 72 hours, you've got dozens of teachers there, and you've got several venues available for use...

    And I don't believe you need to cater for 1,500 people in terms of masterclasses - even at SP I doubt whether more than half the people would go on one. And if demand exceeds supply, then from a business POV, that's an opportunity for growth, surely? It's "just" a question of managing it.

    More money for the teachers (who, I assume, can take a percentage), more offerings in the product, more targetted-teaching, and better quality of classes. It's all good

    Ceroc have taken the lead in isolating (and yes, charging for) different components of weekenders - e.g. car parking. Yes, you whinge at paying more for something that was "free" (more accurately, included in the price) before - but then, if you can get a weekender for £29, you've got spare cash to spend on the extras that are relevant to you.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Breeze-the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But then, you've got a captive audience of 1,500+ dancers in a single location, for 72 hours, you've got dozens of teachers there, and you've got several venues available for use...
    But do you have several suitable venues (inside one weekender)? I wouldn't have guessed so, but I really don't know. And you may have dozens of teachers, but do they want to be teaching the whole time? Teaching is hard work, after all.

    And I don't believe you need to cater for 1,500 people in terms of masterclasses - even at SP I doubt whether more than half the people would go on one.
    Probably true now. But would it change if the emphasis/perceptions shifted so masterclasses were seen as the main teaching opportunity?

    And if demand exceeds supply, then from a business POV, that's an opportunity for growth, surely?
    Only if you think teachers are fungible, otherwise growing the supply is going to be a little difficult.

    More money for the teachers (who, I assume, can take a percentage), more offerings in the product, more targetted-teaching, and better quality of classes. It's all good
    The question is, is it *enough* money for the teachers if it involves quadrupling their workload? (And is quadrupling their workload even feasible? No freaking way I'd want to take on teaching four masterclass aerials workshops over a weekender)!

    Ceroc have taken the lead in isolating (and yes, charging for) different components of weekenders - e.g. car parking. Yes, you whinge at paying more for something that was "free" (more accurately, included in the price) before - but then, if you can get a weekender for £29, you've got spare cash to spend on the extras that are relevant to you.
    I seem to be further on the "cash-rich / time-poor" spectrum than many, so it wouldn't even occur to me to bitch about paying for the masterclasses. But similarly, if I imagine what I'd want if teaching, it would take a lot of money for me to want to move from "teach a couple of workshops but have the rest of the time to yourself" to "devote the entire weekend to teaching". Mileages obviously vary, however, and it's obviously different for full time teachers.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But do you have several suitable venues (inside one weekender)?
    Venues are a problem, definitely - most of the big ones are being used at Southport on a near-continuous basis. For our AT mini-class in June 2006, we had to use the Blues Room at 10am on Sunday morning, for example.

    Having said that, there must be some unused smaller spaces? And I reckon you could fit at least 2-3 small-scale classes into the main room there, it's massive.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    And you may have dozens of teachers, but do they want to be teaching the whole time? Teaching is hard work, after all.
    Teachers always seem to be touting for private lessons at weekenders - ask Minnie - so if you provided a guaranteed payment of as much as a private lesson, and provided the facilities, I bet you'd get takers.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Probably true now. But would it change if the emphasis/perceptions shifted so masterclasses were seen as the main teaching opportunity?
    Maybe. Ideally, I'd like to see charges for all classes however - say, £1 supplement for the massive classes, £5 for 30-strong classes, and £10 for less-than-ten workshops. If you don't have a price, you don't have a value.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Only if you think teachers are fungible, otherwise growing the supply is going to be a little difficult.
    ...
    The question is, is it *enough* money for the teachers if it involves quadrupling their workload? (And is quadrupling their workload even feasible? No freaking way I'd want to take on teaching four masterclass aerials workshops over a weekender)!
    Ahh, don't bother me with details... :waves hand airily:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I seem to be further on the "cash-rich / time-poor" spectrum than many, so it wouldn't even occur to me to bitch about paying for the masterclasses. But similarly, if I imagine what I'd want if teaching, it would take a lot of money for me to want to move from "teach a couple of workshops but have the rest of the time to yourself" to "devote the entire weekend to teaching". Mileages obviously vary, however, and it's obviously different for full time teachers.
    If you were offered (say) £50 - £100 for a one-hour class, I suspect lots of people would be willing to take that on. God knows, there are enough people wanting to be Ceroc teachers, who get paid about that much, for 2-3 hours' work...
    Last edited by David Bailey; 17th-October-2007 at 12:00 PM.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If you were offered (say) £50 - £100 for a one-hour class, I suspect lots of people would be willing to take that on. God knows, there are enough people wanting to be Ceroc teachers, who get paid about that much, for 2-3 hours' work...
    Ah yes. And if you want a heart bypass operation, I can 'find a guy' who's willing to take that on for £100 as well. The results will probably be sub-optimal, however...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Ah yes. And if you want a heart bypass operation, I can 'find a guy' who's willing to take that on for £100 as well. The results will probably be sub-optimal, however...
    Possibly slightly-exaggerated analogy?

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Possibly slightly-exaggerated analogy?
    Not slightly-exaggerated, no...

    But it's certainly not enough just to be willing to do it. Without wanting to put my foot in it ala SpinDr, I've seen enough dodgy teachers at weekenders that the idea of opening things up further simply to provide sufficient workshop teachers doesn't fill me with confidence.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Not slightly-exaggerated, no...

    But it's certainly not enough just to be willing to do it. Without wanting to put my foot in it ala SpinDr, I've seen enough dodgy teachers at weekenders that the idea of opening things up further simply to provide sufficient workshop teachers doesn't fill me with confidence.
    Well, I guess if you offer more classes, you need to either have more teachers, or you need to ask the teachers to work harder, or both. Or you reduce the number of other classes to compensate. Or all three, in fact.

    It's got risks, sure - but hey, it's not my money.

    My basic premises are:
    - Large 400-strong classes are essentially near-useless except as tasters.
    - People value what they pay for more than what comes "free"

    So, I think there's an opportunity for quality improvement and increased revenue, by offering paid-for smaller classes

    Everything else is detail

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    My basic premises are:
    - Large 400-strong classes are essentially near-useless except as tasters.
    - People value what they pay for more than what comes "free"
    I agree with this 100%.

    So, I think there's an opportunity for quality improvement and increased revenue, by offering paid-for smaller classes

    Everything else is detail
    But I think the detail is actually quite a problem when you crunch the numbers. My feeling is the 1000+ weekenders are really too large for this to work without some people feeling they missed out. Smaller more intimate weekenders might be needed.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But I think the detail is actually quite a problem when you crunch the numbers. My feeling is the 1000+ weekenders are really too large for this to work without some people feeling they missed out. Smaller more intimate weekenders might be needed.
    Dave, not sure about this. I get the feeling that the vast majority of people at weekenders want an easy time, look at a few workshops, socialise a fair bit but most dance to ungodly hours in the morning. I think the 'serious dance students' are few and far between. Of course neither of us have any stats to go on. Time for a poll?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Time for a poll?
    Lets have some options and we'll add it to this thread.

    Personally, I think the idea of paid master-classes is really good, though I fear losing out by turning up too late to get my name down. I think if they were advertised only in a subtle manner – as private lessons tend to be – that might work better.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Dave, not sure about this. I get the feeling that the vast majority of people at weekenders want an easy time, look at a few workshops, socialise a fair bit but most dance to ungodly hours in the morning.
    But even so, on average, people do maybe 2 to 3 workshops. If it were all masterclasses, that would require around 10 times as many such classes as there were at Breeze.

    Being cynical, I think there are two conflicting issues:

    (1) If the masterclasses become seen as "what an advanced dancer does at a weekender", then they will be massively oversubscribed. 'Cos everyone thinks they're advanced...

    (2) There seem to be a lot of people who will bridle at paying £5 extra for a masterclass, because it's a ripoff. (Though most will have no problem spending £50 on a night out in town. Heck, you could spend £50 getting home from a night out in London these days).

    I think the 'serious dance students' are few and far between.
    I think the 'serious dance students' will take privates, TBH.

    Of course neither of us have any stats to go on. Time for a poll?
    Definitely a case where the self-selecting nature of the forum isn't going to give good results, unfortunately.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I think if they were advertised only in a subtle manner – as private lessons tend to be – that might work better.
    ... waits for the "Breeze II was cliquey with workshops only the in-crowd got to know about" posts...

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I agree with this 100%.

    But I think the detail is actually quite a problem when you crunch the numbers. My feeling is the 1000+ weekenders are really too large for this to work without some people feeling they missed out. Smaller more intimate weekenders might be needed.


    Am not a weekender regular just yet, but agree with this.

    There were probably around 1,000 at Bliss. Say half do the workshops, and there are three running at any one time with say 200 in two and 100 in one. (The other 500 or so people are walking on the beach, sleeping, eating, drinking in the bar, having sex, wishing they were having sex…) Of those doing the workshops, from the evidence of this forum, most are going to be intermediate dancers – not the advanced dancers that so far the pay-as-you-go workshops have been aimed at.

    You take over the main room to run 4 workshops with 10 couples in each, and evict the 200 or so that would have been in there otherwise to accommodate 80 (and give the DJ/sound technicians a nervous breakdown trying to figure out how to play the different music in each area of the room that each teacher wants, without distracting the other workshops too much). You have 80 happy advanced dancers, and 200 disgruntled intermediates, possibly more when the other workshops swell to 200 or 300 respectively.

    And if you expanded this to the intermediate level, you’d only compound the problem (although teaching technique to these dancers might actually be very useful).

    Whilst I like the idea (despite being a humble intermediate), I doubt that the infrastructure of the venues currently in use could support this. The only way I can see of doing it is to have marquees pitched up outside, which could work if the weather isn’t too bad.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Sorry to post again, but I realise I'm probably coming across like I think Masterclasses are a really bad idea, and I don't. As I said in my first post, originally I was strongly in favour of them.

    But I do think people are being a bit quick to ignore the views of the poster (sorry, don't remember the name) who felt she didn't get a fair chance to participate. What's the adage? "For every 1 who complains, there are 50 who felt the same but didn't speak up".

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But I do think people are being a bit quick to ignore the views of the poster (sorry, don't remember the name) who felt she didn't get a fair chance to participate. What's the adage? "For every 1 who complains, there are 50 who felt the same but didn't speak up".
    Wasn't her complaint about the lack of information she received rather than the master classes themselves? A change in the weekender that she wasn't informed about, and wasn't made clear enough in the timetable.

    I got the impression that had she known in advance and booked, she'd have been quite happy!

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    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Masterclasses at weekenders

    Well, I have abandoned my work enough today so may as well post here too

    I cant see what was wrong with the way it happened last weekend. Ok, if this was not properly advertised then fair enough. However, in the future. as long as everyone gets to know about it then its a first come first served thing.
    If you want to book onto a masterclass then make sure you get to the desk in time. If not then you will miss out.

    Classic marketing ploy. Its just like queueing all night for tickets to see the Cheeky Girls and getting your hands on that golden ticket


    Now the other debate is whether the Masterclasses should be added to the DVD?

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