Real dance teachers

[Sparkles]

Moved from the "Breeze aftermath" thread - DavidJames

The classes

Lucky and Ruby's two classes were the highlight -- it's nice to have real dance teachers. Paul F's and Debi's WCS whips class was also nicely done (*)

I'm sure you meant to pay a compliment here, but I was just wondering how many people you wanted to offend with one comment?!
Personally I thought the line-up of dance teachers at Breeze was spectacular .
I know your (*) was to PM you for details - but details of what? Of the class Paul F and Debi taught? Or of all the classes taught by non-real dance teachers .
Maybe I should learn when to leave well alone, but with loads of fantastic teachers in the line up at Breeze I think your comment could be taken as offensive...

[David Bailey]

I'm sure you meant to pay a compliment here, but I was just wondering how many people you wanted to offend with one comment?!

Yes, I noticed that - he's good, isn't he?

I suspect my long-held "most forumites offended in a single post" record may be at risk

Maybe I should learn when to leave well alone, but with loads of fantastic teachers in the line up at Breeze I think your comment could be taken as offensive...

Well, to be fair, I assume he referred to full-time professional dance teachers - there are very few of those in MJ at the moment.

[Paul F]

I'm sure you meant to pay a compliment here, but I was just wondering how many people you wanted to offend with one comment?!

Hang on, hang on. Maybe he has a point.

I would appreciate any advice on what I need to do to become a 'real' dance teacher.

I have taken my website down at the minute but i would invite anyone to look at my profile on it when its back up and running and to let me know which bits don't lead me to being a 'real' dance teacher.

[Gus]

Well, to be fair, I assume he referred to full-time professional dance teachers - there are very few of those in MJ at the moment.

I think this debate should be moved to a different thread (may already have been debated in the past?)

Personal view, CTA instructors by the virtue of being CTA qualified in itself are NOT 'Dance instructors;. I think there is a magnitude of difference between a ‘proper’ dance instructor (who will typically have done years of formal training) and someone who has had 10 days or so learning how to teach a series of moves parrot fashion. CTA (and similar) training does not teach you the fundamentals of dance, balance , meridians of movement, musical interpretation,. How to use different parts of the body for expression etc etc.

There ARE some MJ instructors, how ever, who do have a proper dance background / expertise. The likes of Nina, Dave & Lily, Amir, Kate etc come to mind. These people I would classify as ‘proper’ dance teachers. There are probably other who have also spent the time studying dance to move into this classification, the likes of Paul F would probably come to mind.

So … though I can understand someone maybe taking offence on an emotional level, how many of the instructors from the weekend would classify themselves as ‘Professional Dance Instructors’? Maybe it’s a case of semantics, but would many put themselves in the same category as the Barkers? Don’t know, just a question.

Can only speak for myself … I’ve been qualified as a MJ instructor since 99, spent a fair amount of time trying to develop both my teaching and understanding of dance … but obviously still fall well short of the ‘Pro Dance Instructor’ category. I’m a pretty fair MJ teacher, and very happy with that level of competence. I don’t see a need to claim to be anything more.

Please feel free to flame away 

[spindr]

I'm sure you meant to pay a compliment here, but I was just wondering how many people you wanted to offend with one comment?!

Well, that'd only be the ones that aren't real dance teachers

My preference is to learn techniques that can be applied to a number of dances -- anyone teaching Ceroc/MJ/WCS-specific techniques are (in my book) Ceroc teachers/MJ teachers/WCS teachers, not dance teachers.

In particular, I like to see a good warmup as part of a lesson -- I liked the isolation exercises for the blues class (they're always a favourite).

Stage presence, class management, planning, etc., etc. are always good.

Cheers,
SpinDr

P.S. I'll PM you Paul F.

[David Bailey]

Well, that'd only be the ones that aren't real dance teachers

Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that to take my crown

[Paul F]

There ARE some MJ instructors, how ever, who do have a proper dance background / expertise. The likes of Nina, Dave & Lily, Amir, Kate etc come to mind. These people I would classify as ‘proper’ dance teachers. There are probably other who have also spent the time studying dance to move into this classification, the likes of Paul F would probably come to mind.

Interesting. Just to confirm, what constitutes a 'proper dance background'? From reading your post it sounds to me like those with 'proper' dance backgrounds have not spent time studying and are just born with this honour?


For what it's worth I class ALL MJ teachers as dance teachers. Ok, many Ceroc teachers may not have been drilled on the specifics of dance but they DO teach dance. In fact, some of my previous coaches could take a thing or two from pretty much all the teachers I saw this last weekend in how to make dance what it should be - enjoyable, appealing and fun.

[David Bailey]

Interesting. Just to confirm, what constitutes a 'proper dance background'? From reading your post it sounds to me like those with 'proper' dance backgrounds have not spent time studying and are just born with this honour?

To me, a "proper" dance background involves actual formal training of some kind - not just a couple of weeks, either. Degrees, accreditation, lots and lots of training, that sort of thing.

Experience is also vital of course, but I think you need both really. You're not going to learn a lot about workings of anatomy no matter how many years you dance, for example.

For what it's worth I class ALL MJ teachers as dance teachers. Ok, many Ceroc teachers may not have been drilled on the specifics of dance but they DO teach dance. In fact, some of my previous coaches could take a thing or two from pretty much all the teachers I saw this last weekend in how to make dance what it should be - enjoyable, appealing and fun.

I'd say Ceroc teachers teach Ceroc-approved MJ dancing. I wouldn't class a Ceroc teacher as (necessarily) a dance teacher. But this is probably a matter of semantics.

[straycat]

Interesting. Just to confirm, what constitutes a 'proper dance background'? From reading your post it sounds to me like those with 'proper' dance backgrounds have not spent time studying and are just born with this honour?

I can only speak for two of the people on that list, but Nina has done an enormous amount of ballet training, spent several years attending a full-time ballet school (forget which one), and made sure she emerged with teaching qualifications. Amir has spent a lot of time studying various aspects of dance, including a course with the legendary Rambert dance company. Basically, lots of study. Lots of professional training. Lots of work. Nothing to do with being born with it. IIRC, Kate has a similarly full background, don't know about the others, but assume much the same.

In fact, some of my previous coaches could take a thing or two from pretty much all the teachers I saw this last weekend in how to make dance what it should be - enjoyable, appealing and fun.

There's nothing to say that dance should be enjoyable, appealing, or fun. You might want it to be. I might want it to be. That's got nothing to do with what makes it dance though.

[ducasi]

Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that to take my crown

Looking back, I think maybe more Ceroc teachers were offended by your use of "clone", rather than "crap". Putting them next to each other then maybe made it worse.

[Gus]

Interesting. Just to confirm, what constitutes a 'proper dance background'? From reading your post it sounds to me like those with 'proper' dance backgrounds have not spent time studying and are just born with this honour?

The one's I've mentioned all have had formal dance training and have had experience of applying that training. I think there are major differences between someone being able to do a move and someone who can explain where, why and how to do the move and to use teaching models appropriate to the student. I'm sorry but only a minority of MJ instructors understand dance principles and dance teaching models. I'm not saying that is a bad thing per se. Teh standard MJ teaching model does not require the 'teacher' to know anything other than the script and it works pretty well.

For what it's worth I class ALL MJ teachers as dance teachers. Ok, many Ceroc teachers may not have been drilled on the specifics of dance but they DO teach dance.

Again semantics ... and maybe I beg to differ (I'm a bit ambivalent on this). My starting position is that MJ instructors teach MOVES not DANCE ... haven't we had this debate before?

In fact, some of my previous coaches could take a thing or two from pretty much all the teachers I saw this last weekend in how to make dance what it should be - enjoyable, appealing and fun.

Agree. A core part of the CTA training is (was ?) that they should be "Cheerleaders" first and foremost.

I have to say that I do have a degree of sympathy with your position, but I think it comes down to what your expectation of a dance instructor is. Maybe, because I've been coached by a few MJ instructors who have a proper dance (formal) background I have a higher expectation about what to expect. The key for me is that after my first 6 months of MJ, few MJ instructors could teach me anything other than moves, little about technique ... for that I've had to go elsewhere.

[Paul F]

I can only speak for two of the people on that list, but Nina has done an enormous amount of ballet training, spent several years attending a full-time ballet school (forget which one), and made sure she emerged with teaching qualifications. Amir has spent a lot of time studying various aspects of dance, including a course with the legendary Rambert dance company. Basically, lots of study. Lots of professional training. Lots of work. Nothing to do with being born with it. IIRC, Kate has a similarly full background, don't know about the others, but assume much the same.

I agree. Doing ballet full-time is definately one way of classing someone as having a proper dance background.
How much this relates to teaching partner work, I am not sure.

There's nothing to say that dance should be enjoyable, appealing, or fun. You might want it to be. I might want it to be. That's got nothing to do with what makes it dance though.

Thats the strangest statement I have heard in a while.

I made an aside that some of my previous intructors could take a leaf out of some of the teachers' books that I saw there this weekend. I didnt once say that these 3 things make an art 'Dance'.
Agree though that it is MY preference that dance should be fun.

[Paul F]

The one's I've mentioned all have had formal dance training and have had experience of applying that training. I think there are major differences between someone being able to do a move and someone who can explain where, why and how to do the move and to use teaching models appropriate to the student.

Im not posting this with malice by the way. I genuinely am curious as to what people perceive to be a 'real' dance teacher

Can you explain what you mean by 'applying that training'?

From your description it sounds as though all the people have been through formal teacher training. Is that a pre-requisite to being a real teacher?

[straycat]

Thats the strangest statement I have heard in a while.

Well - I'm a strange person. Or so I'm told

I made an aside that some of my previous intructors could take a leaf out of some of the teachers' books that I saw there this weekend. I didnt once say that these 3 things make an art 'Dance'.

Since the context was Real Dance Teachers, I took your comment to suggest that making lessons enjoyable, appealing & fun help one to be such.

[Paul F]

Well - I'm a strange person. Or so I'm told

Im sure you're not

Since the context was Real Dance Teachers, I took your comment to suggest that making lessons enjoyable, appealing & fun help one to be such.

I see what you mean. My comment was really an off-handed remark about some of my teachers in the past but, yes, I do believe that a teacher who can achieve all 3 of these (and more) would be a better teacher. Of course, thats just my opinion.

[Paul F]

God I love debates Wish they didnt take up so much time though

[Aleks]

few MJ instructors could teach me anything other than moves, little about technique ... for that I've had to go elsewhere.

All the dance classes I attended before learning MJ consisted of countless exercises to create and improve my technique before I ever progressed to STEPS. I'd never learnt a MOVE until 6 years ago....would that be part of the difference?

[FoxyFunkster]

There's nothing to say that dance should be enjoyable, appealing, or fun. You might want it to be. I might want it to be. That's got nothing to do with what makes it dance though.

I`ve heard some rubbish in my time on the forum but this comment is challenging for a place in the top 10 IMHO!

I do have a question though....at which point does one become a Professional dance teacher then???

Does becoming a professional mean getting paid or does one become professional after a certain amount of time teaching experience???

A 16 year old kid can sign as professional terms with a football team having no experience at all! he is still called a professional

I do think there are other things that are as equally important as being the most technically gifted teacher though, i`m thinking about the passionate teachers with a grounded attitude who put something back into what they do........

All that really interests me as a dancer still learning and a teacher still learning is that i see teachers with a professional attitude.....

[straycat]

I`ve heard some rubbish in my time on the forum but this comment is challenging for a place in the top 10 IMHO!

Explain?

(and where are the other nine so I can compare?)

[Gus]

I do think there are other things that are as equally important as being the most technically gifted teacher though, i`m thinking about the passionate teachers with a grounded attitude who put something back into what they do........

All that really interests me as a dancer still learning and a teacher still learning is that i see teachers with a professional attitude.....

So ... do you think YOU can teach ME to DANCE?