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Thread: Miscarriages of justice

  1. #1
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    Miscarriages of justice

    Well, isn't it amazing what science can do.

    I have read and re-read the cross-examination of Dr Crippen, and what really caught him out was that he had behaved in a way which was utterly and definitively in contradiction of his basic story - I'll try to find a link or even scan my copy (although god knows where it might be) so others can see.

    But the DNA says the body is not that of his wife.

    First question - whose the hell body was it? If the DNA test had been possible at the time he would still have been having to explain how a dead body came to be found in his cellar! "Er...it's not my wife so I have no explanation" would not cut it.

    Second question (observation, really) - there may be a number of explanations that fit the facts and only one of them is that Crippen did not kill anyone. So it's a bit premature to start talking about 'a pardon'.

    As for Crippen's family - what the hell do they know about the process of justice that brought him to trial?

    Reminds me of the family of the priest who was killed by the youth with paranoid schizophrenia, speaking on the radio yesterday. "We have been denied a verdict of murder."

    ...er, no you haven't. The verdict of murder isn't something that anyone other than the state is entitled to. Justice is not vengeance. I conclude - given that he was convicted of manslaughter - that he was found 'not guilty of manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibilty', which automatically leads to 'guilty of manslaughter'. Pluse, he's on indefinite detention - probably will spend longer inside than if he was sentenced for murder. It's clear from the evidence that this guy was not firing on all four cylinders, but the priest's family apparently don't care about that and want their pound of flesh. (Only irretrievably savage societies - like Texas under Bush - think it is fair to treat mentally ill convicts in the same way as all the others.)

    Christians, eh?

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Sorry - completely off topic, but your post reminded me of this;

    George: Tally-ho, pip pip and Bernard's your uncle.
    Blackadder: In English we say 'Good morning'.

    George: Look what I've got for you, sir!
    Blackadder: What?
    George: The latest issue of King and Country. Damn inspiring stuff. 'The magazine that tells the Tommies the truth about the war'.
    Blackadder: Or, alternatively, the greatest work of fiction since vows of fidelity were included in the French marriage service.
    George: Come come, sir, you can't deny that this fine newspaper is good for the morale of the men.
    Blackadder: Certainly not. I just feel that more could be achieved by giving them some real toilet paper.
    George: Not with you at all, sir. What could any patriotic chap have against this magnificent mag?
    Blackadder: Apart from his bottom?
    George: Yes.
    Blackadder: Well, look at it. This stuff is about as convincing as Dr Crippen's defence lawyer! The British Tommies are all portrayed as six foot six with biceps the size of Bournemouth.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    But the DNA says the body is not that of his wife.
    Hmmm. More precisely, a team of researchers say that a sample taken from a museum storage facility doesn't match a sample from relatives of Cora Crippen.

    Shame on you for being so vague, Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Second question (observation, really) - there may be a number of explanations that fit the facts and only one of them is that Crippen did not kill anyone. So it's a bit premature to start talking about 'a pardon'.
    One obvious alternative explanation is that the museum sample is a mistake somehow.

    (Or, obvious compared to trying to address the questions of "So who did he murder?" and "So where was his wife then?"...)

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    One obvious alternative explanation is that the museum sample is a mistake somehow.
    Well its "someones" DNA, but was it completely sealed from contamination all those years and would SOME contamination matter, when they said they tested multiple times?

    (Or, obvious compared to trying to address the questions of "So who did he murder?" and "So where was his wife then?"...)
    The "where was his wife" becomes irrelevant to the case though - he was found guilty of murder because they found A body. The article mentions a woman who lived with his wifes sister not long after Crippen claimed she moved over the sea. Finding someone guilty of murder with no body is a tough one.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Shame on you for being so vague, Barry
    I feel sure you meant to make the far more powerful criticism that I overstated the case.

    I was, in fact, the opposite of vague.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Finding someone guilty of murder with no body is a tough one.
    Well, not as tough as you might think.

    But in any case, there WAS a body!! That's the problem. Maybe he didn't murder his wife, but he certainly killed someone (well, probably. Possibly.)

    Maybe he murdered Cora ages before and the woman masquerading as and who everyone thought was his wife, was actually her first replacement, whom he then killed so he could set up house with the woman he was on the boat with - Cora's body is somewhere else.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I feel sure you meant to make the far more powerful criticism that I overstated the case.

    I was, in fact, the opposite of vague.
    Err, yeah, something like that.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Maybe he murdered Cora ages before and the woman masquerading as and who everyone thought was his wife, was actually her first replacement, whom he then killed so he could set up house with the woman he was on the boat with - Cora's body is somewhere else.
    Yeah... the problem is, that's getting very complex as a theory, it sets up a whole series of hypotheticals and conditionals.

    Whereas my "****-up" theory just sets up one.

    So I win

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah... the problem is, that's getting very complex as a theory, it sets up a whole series of hypotheticals and conditionals.

    Whereas my "****-up" theory just sets up one.

    So I win
    I'm not positing any theory in order to support it; I'm seeking to show that suggestions that there should be a pardon are extremely premature because there are a number of scenarios which do not absolve Crippen.

    But, as it's important to you...

    OK, you win!! Hoorah!

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Back to the question of the murdered priest.

    It seems the family want an inquiry into how come the mental health services didn't know or do anything about the paranoid schizophrenic killer.

    They need to make up their minds.

    Either the guy was ill, in which case they can demand an inquiry but should stop bleating about being 'denied' a murder verdict, or he wasn't ill, in which case they can go on bleating about murder but have to shut up about an inquiry.

    Third option (preferred) The media can stop reporting what they think as if being related to a murdered person gives them any special insight into anything at all.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    re: the media, yes, i think its about time newspapers reported stories like this from the point of view of simple sympathy for the bereaved and report their comments as emotional lashings out at the cruel world - which they generally are

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ...But the DNA says the body is not that of his wife...
    No it does not. It says the sample believed to be from the body does not match samples from people believed to be closely related to Cora Crippen. A baby mix-up is just one possible explanation for that.

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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    No it does not. It says the sample believed to be from the body does not match samples from people believed to be closely related to Cora Crippen. A baby mix-up is just one possible explanation for that.
    good point - its not as if its a really recent case

  14. #14
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    Re: Miscarriages of justice

    I'm afraid my information is limited on the Crippen case - I have only read Marjoribanks' summary, rather than e.g. Notable British Trials.

    My understanding is that: Cora Crippen was last seen alive on 31 January 1910, at a dinner party. She was never seen alive after that. On 2 February Ethel le Neve (Crippen's lover) slept at Crippen's house. Crippen then began to give her jewellery and clothes which belonged to his wife. It was her wearing of some of the jewellery, noticed by some friends of Mrs Crippen which initially provoked "talk". Miss le Neve then moved into Crippen's house as his "housekeeper". Crippen's story at this stage was that his wife had gone to America, but had died of pneumonia on the voyage.
    Crippen was interviewed by the police in July and immediately changed his story. He said that Cora Crippen had left him for another man, whose identity was unknown to him and had begged him to cover up any scandal. The house was looked at at this stage and nothing suspicious found (the account I have does not indicate how exhaustive this search was). Before dropping the matter, however, a police Inspector paid another visit to Crippen's consulting rooms to ask some supplementary questions, only to be told Crippen had gone abroad - so had Miss Le Neve. A thorough investigation of Crippen's house was made at this stage, and loose bricks discovered in the cellar floor. Beneath this were remains of flesh, wrapped in a pyjama jacket (the delivery of this jacket to Crippen's house was subsequently traced), and buried in quicklime. There was no head, bones, or anything to identify whether the flesh was that of a man or woman. Identification of the remains as being that of Cora Crippen was down to the fact that one of the pieces of flesh bore a scar of an abdominal operation, which had been performed on Cora Crippen. The remains also contained the drug hyoscine - which can be a poison.
    Crippen was pursued across the Atlantic and arrested just as he and Miss Le Neve, who was dressed as a boy, were about to disembark and start a new life in Canada.

    Crippen's position at trial (I am working only from a summary, so may well be corrected by Barry, who has read the case in detail) was that he knew nothing about the remains in the cellar, he had last seen his wife alive and well on February 1st, and that she must have left him for another man unknown.

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