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Thread: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

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    Talking Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

    By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

    In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

    By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

    In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?
    No.

    I like the fact that Ceroc beginner classes are structured towards people who are there for the first night.

    The (even the) single pretzel, for someone on their first night of dancing, is not an easy move, with lots of opportunity for guys to cause their partners pain during the behind the back part. And, from what I've seen, that applies to a lot of intermediate guys, let alone people on their first night! (Ask CeeCee for her opinion of doing the pretzel if you don't believe me).

    It would be nice if there could be an intromediate class between beginners and intermediate, where the 'classic' moves could maybe be focused on. But in most cases, that's not really practical due to space restrictions.

    There should be one of the classic moves taught in every intermediate class, so it won't be long before the new intermediates know each of them. As for beginners, it's easy. Don't do those moves with them. There's still plenty of others you can lead for beginners to follow.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    The right-handed back pass is a beginner move.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

    By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

    In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?
    So are these moves intermediate for Ceroc UK?

    Locally these are beginner moves... is that your point?

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    An intermediate should not need to recognise a move to be able to lead a variation of it, they ought to be able to learn a whole move in a single class. (I'm assuming that they won't be landed with 4 moves which are unlike anything they've seen before).

    If you're struggling with leading the moves you listed with a beginner follower, you need to improve your lead (and drop the pretzl).

    Sean

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

    By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.
    Mmmm. As I've said elsewhere, ifollowers should never have to "recognise" a move. If the move is well-led, it should be easy to follow - you shouldn't need to rely on a follower's pattern-recognition skills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?
    Presumably, you'd have to remove some other Beginner moves to make room - what would your suggested set be?

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere
    And who wouldn't

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Presumably, you'd have to remove some other Beginner moves to make room - what would your suggested set be?
    Why remove when you can add

    Welcome "Steve" have fun

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    By which I mean the basic forms of such like of the Hatchback, Sway, Wurlitzer, Back Pass or even the single Pretzel.

    By my knowledge they are never actually taught in their simple basic form yet many new intermediates and beginner (normally followers) simply don't recognise them which can be a hinderence considering these moves lead to so many variations.

    In other franchises outside Ceroc, these simple classic moves are taught in the beginners lessons. But do you think Ceroc should do the same?
    Not sure where you're based as it doesn't say on your profile but in many places and especially around here those moves are most definately taught in their most basic form as part of the intermediate classes as Trampy pointed out- in addition to that they are taught as part of the intermediate workshops. And as Sparkles correctly pointed out the back pass is a beginner move so is most definately taught.

    I think what you're struggling with here is the fact that if you try to lead these moves on a new intermediate (or beginners) they only have a few set patterns that they have automatic responses to - let me try and explain - most new intermediates are not actually following the lead they are responding and moving according to the moves you start to lead. (I know I'm using a generalisation I realise there are exceptions to the norm) The only experience they have of moves is the ones they've been exposed to.

    For example if the intermediate class had a 1/2 pretzel variation in during freestyle they would see the initial lead and assume you were doing that move and react by moving through the motion rather than following what you were actually leading.

    I think this is more to do with actual lead and follow skills rather than what moves are taught at an intermediate level be it Ceroc or other. Possibly at venues outside Ceroc they are exposed to different moves at different times but the outcome is still the same - put them with someone whose moves they haven't experienced and you will still have the same fundamental problem - the follows respond to what they know not what is led until they learn to recognise the difference and respond to the lead.

    Lead and follow skills come with time, I'd love to be able to teach all the beginners and intermediates lead and follow skills but it's something that requires work and comes with time and experience.

    Angel x

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkles View Post
    The right-handed back pass is a beginner move.
    Sorry I meant the back hander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So are these moves intermediate for Ceroc UK?

    Locally these are beginner moves... is that your point?
    They are not part of the 19 (or so) beginners moves and yet never expicitly taught on their own.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Why remove when you can add
    If you add (say) 4 moves to the existing, err, 16 or so (?), then that means you're adding another week to the 4-week "beginner training course" cycle, so it takes extra time to go over those moves.

    Plus, you can't cover that expanded set in the existing workshop structure.

    Plus, if you keep on adding moves to the set, where do you stop? 30? 50? 600?

    You have to have some limited set, and 16-18 is the size that Ceroc uses.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hi Steven, welcome to the forum - I note you ignored my advice elsewhere
    You recognised my username then. Lol. I didn't recognise yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    If you're struggling with leading the moves you listed with a beginner follower, you need to improve your lead (and drop the pretzl).
    It's not me who struggles with the lead. I get far too many complements about the quality of my lead, from beginners to intermediates ofter stating I'm the best lead in the room - *blows own trumpet*. It a problem for those who don't have such a strong lead and the fact that followers tend to state that fact to me after a dance from a weak lead.

    As for me I tend to only dance moves I have perfected and NEVER use such moves in their basic form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Why remove when you can add
    Exactly. Also adding that beginners can often get bored of the beginners set of moves before they are ready to step to intermediate. Something which I know has put dancers off returning. I say merely expand, not subsitute. Not overly helpful for the complete beginners I know but more helpful to those not completely read for the step up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Welcome "Steve" have fun
    Cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Almost an Angel View Post
    Not sure where you're based as it doesn't say on your profile but in many places and especially around here those moves are most definately taught in their most basic form as part of the intermediate classes as Trampy pointed out- in addition to that they are taught as part of the intermediate workshops. And as Sparkles correctly pointed out the back pass is a beginner move so is most definately taught.
    I'm from Crewe and dance around Cheshire, Stockport, Manchester, North Wales (and the Midlands on rare occasions). And as I said I meant the bank hander (I forgot the name of it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Almost an Angel View Post
    I think what you're struggling with here is the fact that if you try to lead these moves on a new intermediate (or beginners) they only have a few set patterns that they have automatic responses to - let me try and explain - most new intermediates are not actually following the lead they are responding and moving according to the moves you start to lead. (I know I'm using a generalisation I realise there are exceptions to the norm) The only experience they have of moves is the ones they've been exposed to.

    For example if the intermediate class had a 1/2 pretzel variation in during freestyle they would see the initial lead and assume you were doing that move and react by moving through the motion rather than following what you were actually leading.

    I think this is more to do with actual lead and follow skills rather than what moves are taught at an intermediate level be it Ceroc or other. Possibly at venues outside Ceroc they are exposed to different moves at different times but the outcome is still the same - put them with someone whose moves they haven't experienced and you will still have the same fundamental problem - the follows respond to what they know not what is led until they learn to recognise the difference and respond to the lead.
    I do agree but that could be argued that the follow is thinking rather than the lead not being in control. But I think everyone goes through that some stage. I have only just taken up following myself and I do realise how difficult it is to empty ones mind of thought. I know it will get easier though.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If you add (say) 4 moves to the existing, err, 16 or so (?), then that means you're adding another week to the 4-week "beginner training course" cycle, so it takes extra time to go over those moves.
    You don't have to restrict yourself to 4 moves per class though. The classes I attended in Sydney, they did about 8 moves in the beginners class, including pretzels and leans. It did seem to work fine, even though UK experience would suggest that's far too much for beginners to cope with. I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.

    [I'm not saying this is a better way of doing it, more that I bet this is where Martin is coming from].

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Exactly. Also adding that beginners can often get bored of the beginners set of moves before they are ready to step to intermediate. Something which I know has put dancers off returning. I say merely expand, not subsitute. Not overly helpful for the complete beginners I know but more helpful to those not completely read for the step up.
    But surely, if they aren't ready to step up, that's because they can't do those beginner moves that (you think) they are bored of. So, what they need to do, is practice those beginner moves, not try to learn more beginner moves that they also won't be able to do. If they can do the complete set of current beginner moves, then they are ready to step up. If they can't, then that's what they need to be learning.....

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    The (even the) single pretzel, for someone on their first night of dancing, is not an easy move,
    I agree it is not easy.
    with lots of opportunity for guys to cause their partners pain during the behind the back part.
    I think (not being a teacher) that is more a matter of how it is taught.
    Certainly, it seems to flow with no problems with first timer followers if it has been taught in the class. First-timer followers who do not know the move can be a problem, and that could lead to injury to either leader or follower (or both). When I lead it with someone I don't know, I'm always ready to change and do something else at any point in the move.

    I realise there may be a big difference for people trying to follow a first-time leader who thinks he knows the pretzel.

    Are beginner classes aimed at beginner leaders or beginner followers (I think everyone agrees followers progress more quickly initially)?



    In three and a half years, I have never been taught the catapult, although I have been taught many moves that are supposedly based on it.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You don't have to restrict yourself to 4 moves per class though. The classes I attended in Sydney, they did about 8 moves in the beginners class, including pretzels and leans. It did seem to work fine, even though UK experience would suggest that's far too much for beginners to cope with. I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.

    [I'm not saying this is a better way of doing it, more that I bet this is where Martin is coming from].
    How do you count moves?
    I've only ever danced in Sydney, and I always thought beginner classes were 3 or 4 moves (and the 3-4 is whether you count a return as a move).
    Intermediate classes seem to be whatever the teacher can get away with (considering the limitations of her demo).

    I think one difference is that there are more experienced dancers who do the beginners class, so there are quite a few 'unofficial taxis' in the line.
    I had to requote this, just to convince myself what it implies is real.
    Here it is pretty standard to do the beginner class, help the newcomers, dance with the first timers (I have started to understand from this forum that men who dance with first timers are automatically regarded as sleazes in the UK; but here we dance with newcomers to build the dance, not to get laid).

    And most intermediate dancers will join the beginner class. Both to help the beginners and because the beginner class is a good opportunity to practise adding style to basic moves.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    In three and a half years, I have never been taught the catapult, although I have been taught many moves that are supposedly based on it.
    Seriously. It is taught in the beginners class around Cheshire every 3-4 weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    But surely, if they aren't ready to step up, that's because they can't do those beginner moves that (you think) they are bored of. So, what they need to do, is practice those beginner moves, not try to learn more beginner moves that they also won't be able to do. If they can do the complete set of current beginner moves, then they are ready to step up. If they can't, then that's what they need to be learning.....
    Do people ever say they are bored of the beginners class/review class yet you know they aren't fully competant of leading/following such moves? Unfortunately I hear it far too often.

    I know it can be a lot to take in at once for beginners but some of the better newer dancers I know went straight into the deep end into intermediate and progressed quicker for it.

    This is more true for followers simply as they will be less likely to anticpate as they are more suspectable to being lead into variations and not just what they think is happening from what they already know.

    For leads, this isn't really the case I know as they need to be comfortable with the beginner moves beforehand.

    EDIT -

    Just to clarrify:

    BEGINNERS MOVES

    Armjive
    Armjive Pushspin
    Armjive Swizzle
    Backpass
    Basket
    Catapult
    Cerocspin
    First Move
    First Move Pushspin
    In and Out
    Manspin
    Octopus
    Shoulderdrop
    Shoulderslide
    Side to Side Shoulders
    Slo Comb
    Yoyo

    CLASSIC MOVES

    Accordion
    Nelson Accordion
    Archiespin
    Basket Unwind
    Basket Unwind/Wind
    Basket Pull
    Butterfly
    Butterfly Cheat
    Catapull
    Single handed Catapull
    First Move Barrier
    First Move Barrier with a twist
    First Move Walk Through
    Open First Move (travelling)
    Hatchback
    Hatchflick Barrier
    Half Windmill
    Pretzel
    Half Pretzel
    Almost Pretzel
    Open Pretzel
    Man's Wrap
    Neckbreak
    Short Neckbreak
    Double Handed Return into Shoulder Spin
    Seducer
    Secret and Spin
    Secret Swizzle
    Sway
    Double Handed Sway
    Sway Pull Shoulders
    Swizzlestick
    Teapot
    Wraparound 1 or 2
    Wurlitzer

    Is it not possible for some of the more simple classic moves to be downgraded to be included into the beginners moves rota?
    Last edited by Steven666; 17th-October-2007 at 12:19 PM.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    How do you count moves?
    I've only ever danced in Sydney, and I always thought beginner classes were 3 or 4 moves (and the 3-4 is whether you count a return as a move).
    Intermediate classes seem to be whatever the teacher can get away with (considering the limitations of her demo).
    Same way anyone else does I think. Given the teacher named each move, it was pretty clear where one started and the next one stopped. I don't know if the class was unusual though (Mosman).

    [N.B. I'm talking as if my memory is 100% accurate, which given this was 4 years ago now, it might not be. I definitely remember thinking "blimey, that's a lot of moves for a beginners class" at the time, though. I remember two moves were definitely a pretzel and a basket-lean as well].

    I had to requote this, just to convince myself what it implies is real.
    Here it is pretty standard to do the beginner class, help the newcomers, dance with the first timers
    It's common amongst people who've been dancing maybe a year or so, but much less so amongst the more experienced dancers. Experienced dancers tend not to go the classes at all. (I am not implying this is a good thing).

    (I have started to understand from this forum that men who dance with first timers are automatically regarded as sleazes in the UK; but here we dance with newcomers to build the dance, not to get laid).
    I think this is slightly different - dancing with first timers doesn't get you regarded as a sleaze (I hope not, seeing as I do it a lot at my local venue). What's sleazy is the older experienced dancer (usually not actually that good) who seems to makes a beeline for only young pretty beginners. There are usually ulterior motives, at best the "I'm not that great but dance with a beginner and she'll think I am", but at worst the "No, trust me, it really does work better if we dance groin-to-groin" types...

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Just to clarrify:
    Just to clarify, could you give the Australian names of those moves, because I have no idea from that list which ones I have been taught, whether in beginner or in intermediate.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Just to clarify, could you give the Australian names of those moves, because I have no idea from that list which ones I have been taught, whether in beginner or in intermediate.
    I would if I knew what the Australian names were but unfunately I don't sorry.

    But I do wish the Springer is taught more often over here. I do like that move and it's variantions. I've heard it's a beginner move in Australia.

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    Re: Are the classic moves really intermediate?

    Swap the sway for the first move push-spin, and the 'beginners' moves cover 95% of what I lead. The 'classic' moves don't fit my style at all...

    Sean

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