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Thread: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    How about the Utopia ChampionshiP?
    Eeee, I like that!

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I notice that your proposed judging criteria didn't require closeness, so calling it a UCP competition might be misleading.
    I confess, my post started off a tad flippant, so my initial scribblings hadn't been fully thought through but by the end of it, as I said, I'd warmed to the idea..

    I think 'closeness' should be one of the elements but I'd hate to see people stuck together in close embace for the whole dance, it would be very boring for the spectator.
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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hold on. The three places finalists had RADICALLY different dance styles .... I've not read anything from the Judges that reconciles such a wide diversity to 'Blues'. Personally I thought that only one of the three was pure Blues, one was an interesting variation and the third was just competition Ceroc done slowly
    I didn't see it, and there are no clips available, so I can only comment on the preparation and feedback.

    It may well be true that it's functionally too difficult to run a "proper" MJ Blues competition, but your post gave the impression that Evil Ceroc are just sitting in their Dark Towers and not bothering to communicate with us - and that's plain wrong.

  3. #103
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I've not read anything from the Judges that reconciles such a wide diversity to 'Blues'.
    But bear in mind that there was quite a diversity on the judging panel
    * Ruby has indicated the kinds of things that she was looking for
    * Rocky, I would guess, might look for the kinds of thing he and Val perform and teach
    * David B has admitted on here in the past (can't find ref) to not personally enjoying dancing blues so he's likely to appreciate different aspects. Note I am not debating his inclusion as a judge - he's a very experienced judge and one of the aspects being looked for was clear lead and follow - but it's likely that his personal opinion of Blues dancing will impact on the things he is looking for.

  4. #104
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But bear in mind that there was quite a diversity on the judging panel
    * Ruby has indicated the kinds of things that she was looking for
    * Rocky, I would guess, might look for the kinds of thing he and Val perform and teach
    * David B has admitted on here in the past (can't find ref) to not personally enjoying dancing blues so he's likely to appreciate different aspects. Note I am not debating his inclusion as a judge - he's a very experienced judge and one of the aspects being looked for was clear lead and follow - but it's likely that his personal opinion of Blues dancing will impact on the things he is looking for.
    And we've had comments from all three of these judges on this thread - seems pretty good to me.

    I don't even know who the BB judges are...

  5. #105
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    .... but your post gave the impression that Evil Ceroc are just sitting in their Dark Towers and not bothering to communicate with us - and that's plain wrong.
    Evil? Ceroc? What ever put those words into your potty mouth?? Wash it out at once and do not malign Ceroc again. I'm ashamed of you ... plus I never actually called them evil ... well, not this time anyway.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But bear in mind that there was quite a diversity on the judging panel
    Excellent point ... but how does that help a Blues Dancer trying to win by doing a Blues dance that the panel is looking for? Maybe for next year they should just put out the vid of Dale & Sarah and say ..." Do This"?

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    no-one can define what Blues is.
    Oh, I think the definitions and examples of Blues given by dedicated Blues instructors are fairly clear. Certainly clear enough for you and Lory to say "not for me, thanks".

    I notice that the way I typically dance to slow music at Modern Jive events is substantially different to the way Blues experts dance at Blues events. The difference is not just in ability, but also in technique, style, and movements. From this I deduce that I am not dancing Blues, but instead a form of slow Modern Jive. At a push, I might be dancing MJ-based blues, a hybrid dance formed of Modern Jive and simple elements of Blues.

    Other people, faced with the same discrepancy, believe very strongly that whatever it is they're dancing is Blues, despite it looking very different and being danced to different music. They they start teaching, and we get people on this forum claiming that "Blues is Modern Jive". Tedious, but not particularly important.

  8. #108
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Oh, I think the definitions and examples of Blues given by dedicated Blues instructors are fairly clear. Certainly clear enough for you and Lory to say "not for me, thanks".
    I was simply saying that, 'If' the clips shown earlier in this thread are 'true blues' and the 'ultimate' goal we should be aiming for, then 'that style' is not for me!

    But sadly, it doesn't seem to be as clear cut as that.

    I notice that the way I typically dance to slow music at Modern Jive events is substantially different to the way Blues experts dance at Blues events. The difference is not just in ability, but also in technique, style, and movements. From this I deduce that I am not dancing Blues, but instead a form of slow Modern Jive. At a push, I might be dancing MJ-based blues, a hybrid dance formed of Modern Jive and simple elements of Blues.
    Me too, I'd say without a doubt, having seen those clips, that I've never danced 'real blues', ever.
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Do we have to label everything? Why can't it just be dancing to blues music?
    Because it dosn't have to be danced to blues music

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I notice that the way I typically dance to slow music at Modern Jive events is substantially different to the way Blues experts dance at Blues events. The difference is not just in ability, but also in technique, style, and movements. From this I deduce that I am not dancing Blues, but instead a form of slow Modern Jive. At a push, I might be dancing MJ-based blues, a hybrid dance formed of Modern Jive and simple elements of Blues.
    I dance differently to slow MJ tracks - it's a MJ/blues hybrid.
    What makes the difference for me is the intemacy and closeness: When I'm in a MJ enviroment, with MJ ethos and MJ ettequete, getting UCP with someone and dancing what I would consider "proper" blues is closer to 'slease' than dancing.

    {In saying that, I think that it's OK to get sleasy with someone you know is acceptable to share personal space with... as long as it's not taken for granted that you can do that for everyone.}

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Oh, I think the definitions and examples of Blues given by dedicated Blues instructors are fairly clear. Certainly clear enough for you and Lory to say "not for me, thanks".
    I think there is a form of elitism going on here.

    There are many more "dedicated" blues instructors out there, and I even attended a blues workshop, earlier this year in Australia, put on by a top USA WCS couple (Robert Cordoba & Debra Szekely), which was far different to the clips, in fact very similar to MJ blues.

    I respect how Ruby summed it up, as in what she was looking for and how she adapted to encompase a variety of "styles" of blues - Well done Ruby on your great post.


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I notice that the way I typically dance to slow music at Modern Jive events is substantially different to the way Blues experts dance at Blues events. The difference is not just in ability, but also in technique, style, and movements. From this I deduce that I am not dancing Blues, but instead a form of slow Modern Jive. At a push, I might be dancing MJ-based blues, a hybrid dance formed of Modern Jive and simple elements of Blues.
    So are you saying the earlier clips are "complex" elements of blues? or simply a Tango based, Lindy based or USA based type of blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I was simply saying that, 'If' the clips shown earlier in this thread are 'true blues' and the 'ultimate' goal we should be aiming for, then 'that style' is not for me!
    I am not sure the people in the clips said "this is the only blues, all the rest of you are wrong" - they were demoing "thier blues" and credit for that.

    Once you get past intermediate you develop your own style and work with that, then show people what you have, they either like it and want to emulate it, or they have a preference on a different style.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Me too, I'd say without a doubt, having seen those clips, that I've never danced 'real blues', ever.
    Lory , you are being very generous, I think when people sit back and see all the different styles of blues out there, it is fairly harsh to say only one style is "real"

    Lory you are "real" and you certainly dance blues the way I like it

    There are style preferences in blues in the same way there are style preferences in MJ - no-one is not being "true blue" - they are expressing thier style of artistry.

  12. #112
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Oh, I think the definitions and examples of Blues given by dedicated Blues instructors are fairly clear. Certainly clear enough for you and Lory to say "not for me, thanks".
    If that's MJ Blues, sure.

    But it ain't, is it? It's Blues blues. Or something

    Or, putting it another way:
    "No one can obtain any useful consensus definition of what blues is, in the context of the Modern Jive partner dance scene".

    Not exactly snappy, but that's what I mean when I say "No one knows what Blues is".

    If I were dancing Blues-in-MJ 2-3 years ago, it'd be lots of wiggles, dips, drops, clamp-legs-together hold, hair pulling, face contact, and so on.

    If I were dancing Blues-in-MJ now, it'd be almost total Nuevo Tango style, with maybe a dip and a turn or two thrown in.

    Both very different styles - but there's nothing to say that either style is right or wrong.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 19th-October-2007 at 03:17 PM.

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Oh, and:
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Lory you are "real" and you certainly dance blues the way I like it
    - Lory has a clear vision of what her version of Blues should be, I believe.

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I think there is a form of elitism going on here.
    Certainly. I'm comparing my dancing to the dancing of good Blues dancers at Blues events, seeing differences (beyond differences in talent), and drawing conclusions. I think it's an instructive comparison. I could instead compare my dancing to the dancing of West Coast instructors teaching Blues workshops at West Coast events, but I don't think that would tell me as much about Blues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So are you saying the earlier clips are "complex" elements of blues? or simply a Tango based, Lindy based or USA based type of blues?
    (aside: one of the Skye/Frida clips posted was in a preliminary to a Lindy competition, and I'd tend to describe it as Lindy)
    I'm saying that, if I squint, I can look at brief portions of my dancing to slow music at Modern Jive events, and see bastardised versions of some of the simpler Blues elements in those clips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Once you get past intermediate you develop your own style and work with that.
    Of course.
    I'm not past intermediate at Blues dance. I've not done enough classes, nor have I done enough freestyle. Therefore I should be emulating good Blues dancers, rather than choosing my own path. Given the notable differences between my dancing and that of good Blues dancers, I conclude that I still have a long way to go before I'm ready to blaze my own trail.

    I could probably go to a Salsa event and dance a mix of Modern Jive and Lindy all night and have fun. However, I wouldn't be developing my own style of Salsa. Instead, I'd be dancing a mix of Modern Jive and Lindy to Salsa music. If I want to learn Salsa, I should start with beginner Salsa classes and try to dance like a good Salsa dancer.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I could probably go to a Salsa event and dance a mix of Modern Jive and Lindy all night and have fun.
    No, you really couldn't. I speak from experience here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    If I want to learn Salsa, I should start with beginner Salsa classes and try to dance like a good Salsa dancer.
    Indeed.

    I've no problem with someone saying what "Blues-not-in-MJ" is, as a discrete and separate dance form. The problem is when you try to find out what "Blues-in-MJ" is.

    And as (I assume) the competition was "MJ Blues" not "Blues Blues", this is relevant.

    Or, am I completely wrong, and the competition was based on "Blues Blues"? If so, then fair enough, but it's a bit of a weird thing to do, like having an AT competition at a MJ weekender...

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    I like dancing.

    I like interpreting and expressing the music with my body. I like gaining a connection with my partner for that moment. if I'm lucky, I'll get that connection for quite a few of the phrases and enjoy the experience by sharing a smile with my partner. They will be the "sweet spots" in the dance.

    On rare occassions i will dance to a whole track feeling prety much connected throughout with the music and my partner. Its those tracks and those moments that make my evening very special.

    Even rarer, I will find a dj that will play a number of tunes that I and a/my partner can totally dissapear into and come out the other end feeling "reborn" to dancing in some way. That event will always stay with me.

    The music that affects me like this tends to be slower music (Blues?) with a great groove, expression, contrast, clarity and space. Tempo is not all, nor is 12 bars or regular breaks.

    I use Modern Jive as the basis for my moves, many intrepetated very differently in the moment by my partner or I according to where the music takes us. Tango, Swing, Salsa moves may play a more distinctive role for different phrases and I think I'm dancing "the blues". But this cant be the case.

    I love doing what i do. But is my version of dancing "the Blues" anywhere near the same as anyone elses (with the exception to my dancing partners at that moment)? How do I know or test that?

    If I enter a "Blues" competition I want to know in advance clearly what the judges expect so I can chose to test myself or not. It would appear that the top 3 couples at Breeze had very different styles, this may or may not be a reflection of the individual tastes of the judges. I want to make the choice, for this i need clarity.

    Evidence from the Breeze judging and this discussion leans towards a wide intrepretion of what "the Blues" is. If It can be defined clearly then I can make choices.

    Or just maybe it shouldnt be a classified? Why judge it? It's just dancing, why label it?

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    No, you really couldn't. I speak from experience here.
    Why on earth not? That's exactly what I do, and I find it fun (depending on the music)...

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusioneer View Post
    ... and I think I'm dancing "the blues". But this cant be the case.
    From your description, you're dancing high quality Modern Jive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusioneer View Post
    Is my version of dancing "the Blues" anywhere near the same as anyone else's? How do I know or test that?
    Two options:

    1. Video yourself dancing. Compare that to a selection of videos of Blues dances.
    2. Go to a Blues event. Try to dance with Blues dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    As (I assume) the competition was "MJ Blues" not "Blues Blues", this is relevant.
    From Ruby's comments, and the competition description, I'd say that it was a Blues competition (or "Blues Blues" in your terminology). However, it was possible to get away with not being very Blues-ish if you were good in other areas. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Although I wouldn't classify Trampy's dance style as a terribly pure form of blues, I know that for me, he placed at the end because he was really working it... really taking chances and not just stepping to the beat. And of course, he and his partner gave a very memorable performance.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Why on earth not? That's exactly what I do, and I find it fun (depending on the music)...
    Coz it's Just Wrong, OK?

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    Re: Blues Championships - was it Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusioneer View Post
    I love doing what i do. But is my version of dancing "the Blues" anywhere near the same as anyone elses (with the exception to my dancing partners at that moment)? How do I know or test that?
    Was thinking about this and related statements ... and maybe need to push this one out a bit. How would people feel is I said 'Blues' as predominately danced in this country originated from the Nigel and Nina Blues concept. Whether this is Blues in the US sense or Swing sense is to a large extent irrelevant. I would hazard a guess that the style of Blues you now seen danced by the Rokovs, Trampy etc is directly descended from that. I know that all the instructors in the N West teaching Blues got the style directly from N&N. So ... if UK Blues i d erived more or less directly from N&N, shouldn't they be asked to define what 'Blues' is ... just a thought.

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