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Thread: Continuous Lead?

  1. #21
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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Well it is just semantics, but unless we are clear about what words mean when we use them, it makes it pointless to discuss anything! I think for my purposes at least it makes sense to distinguish between:

    leading - the pressure which you introduce to indicate or stop a movement and
    connection - the pressure which makes you aware of your partner even when not leading or influencing a movement.

    - snip -

    PS I haven’t used this distinction between ‘lead’ and ‘connection’ on any other post or thread, just here and now to make it easier to discuss this subject…

    PPS I can't be sure I have using the terminology in the same way that Franck or DavidB use it so don't take what I have said to represent what they think without checking!
    I agree with everything Amir said. And thought that was what I'd said. Maybe it's my communication skills that I need to brush up on

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    On a more serious note, if trying a non contact lead and follow, if the follow looks to the core (between the chest) she can often follow the movement and direction, or am I getting too technical ...

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    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    am I getting too technical ...
    No
    "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The question asked if you gave a bit of a lead and left the lady to do the rest of if you led her all the way through the move.
    I don't think that was the question. The question was "should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??"

    So I think the question is about pressure/pull, rather than lead (which in your use of the word is there even when not touching, so is obviously independent from pressure.) There is a clear difference between a follower who can complete a movement without you having to pull her all the way through it, and someone that needs you to push/pull them the whole time.

    Actually, I used to dance and teach only the second method, back when all I did was quite simple circular ceroc. When I learnt to dance in a slot I found the continual pull method is not required, and therefore a mater of choice. Learning to not rely on continual pressure for me at least opened up a whole new world of expression, diversity and connection.

    The question I now ask is not 'should I do x or y' but 'when should I do x and when should I do y'

    It is an ongoing question with an ever changing answer.


    Not very practical advice perhaps, but atleast supports my premise that you are unlikely to learn anything practical from the forum, but you may discover that there are things out there you didn't know about, and will hopefully be inspired to go and investigate what they are.
    Last edited by Amir; 11th-October-2007 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Because I like editing. snip!

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    So I think the question is about pressure/pull, rather than lead (which in your use of the word is there even when not touching, so is obviously independent from pressure.) There is a clear difference between a follower who can complete a movement without you having to pull her all the way through it, and someone that needs you to push/pull them the whole time.

    Actually, I used to dance and teach only the second method, back when all I did was quite simple circular ceroc. When I learnt to dance in a slot I found the continual pull method is not required, and therefore a mater of choice. Learning to not rely on continual pressure for me at least opened up a whole new world of expression, diversity and connection.

    The question I now ask is not 'should I do x or y' but 'when should I do x and when should I do y'
    I agree with Amir, I find now, it's almost like I lead the acceleration and deacceleration rather than the whole actual movement. Often once the acceleration and deacceleration has ended, and there's no push/pull/compression/leverage/shove/yank* it's almost like controlled coasting. And that coasting bit is where I'm secretly hoping the followers will break into a smogasborg of bodyrolls an' stuff (or whatever takes their fancy)

    I wouldn't say this doesn't happen in circular dancing, it most certainly can be danced like this, but somehow, I don't know why because I never thought about it . It doesn't seem to open the window for the expression stuff as efficiently. Then again, maybe that's just because most circular dancing I do tends to be at relatively high pace, which doesn't lend itself to expression quite as well anyway...

    *delete as appropriate.

  6. #26
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I agree with Amir, I find now, it's almost like I lead the acceleration and deacceleration rather than the whole actual movement.

    I wouldn't say this doesn't happen in circular dancing, it most certainly can be danced like this, but somehow, I don't know why because I never thought about it . It doesn't seem to open the window for the expression stuff as efficiently.
    Circular motion requires continuous inward acceleration, which might well explain it.

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I wouldn't say this doesn't happen in circular dancing, it most certainly can be danced like this, but somehow, I don't know why because I never thought about it . It doesn't seem to open the window for the expression stuff as efficiently.
    Funny, it's the complete opposite for me.

    Yes, I usually do more slotted dancing when it's a slower beat, but that's also when it's more "controlled", in terms of definite moves - Manhattans, West Manhattans, cross-body leads, that sort of thing.

    When I do circular dancing, that seems to be where there's more scope for interpretation and creativity. One example is sways and man-sways, there are loads of exciting things I can do with my feet . Another example is walkarounds - the women can do whatever they want as the walk around, take as long as they want, roll or pop their bodies, it's completely up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Then again, maybe that's just because most circular dancing I do tends to be at relatively high pace, which doesn't lend itself to expression quite as well anyway...
    To me, fast & funky music lends itself to expression extremely well. It doesn't lend itself to musical interpretation - not many breaks in the average club track - but expression is fine.

    A good example of this is Bodyrockers' "I like the way you move". No breaks, no pauses, very little change in tempo, but lots of opportunities for expression.

    Am I just weird here? Am I confused? Or both? What's going on?

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I would strongly recommend that you book a private lesson with DavidB so that you can appreciate the difference.
    I propose that we clone DavidB without delay and miniaturise so that ALL clubs can have their own private DavidB replicant to advise and educate on all matter pertaining to Lead & Follow

    Seriously though ... its a shame that DavidB's expertise on the subject can't be better disseminated. After being 'subjected' to a DavidB coaching session I realised that my last 7 years of teaching had been woefully inadequate ..... as Franck alludes to, there are some pretty fundamental things that most dancers really aren't getting exposed to.

    PS. I'm sure there are other teachers who can and are teaching these lead and follow fundamentals (e.g. Amir) .... its just that I've not come across many

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Thanks for the other answers Amir. I see what you mean now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Typing or poor posture can lead to chronic injuries, like RSI / back pain etc. Those are the kind of injuries I'm talking about...
    I get the feeling that those kinds of chronic injuries are mostly a risk for professional dancers. As an amateur I just don't chalk up the kind of hours that risk RSI. Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If you're not leading continuously, then what's the basic lead "unit"?
    In my experience, normally two beats, occasionally one beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    When I do circular dancing, that seems to be where there's more scope for interpretation and creativity
    It might be that slotted dancing has more scope for interpretation of the form "watch the girl's bum while she wiggles it creatively". The follower knows where the end of the slot is, so she has more scope for such things.

  10. #30
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    I am sure that someone has said this before but dance is a conversation on the dance floor and like any conversation you have to know when to talk and when to listen. Leading is predominantly about indicating two things, direction and momentum.


    You talk when you indicate your intentions(some would say invitations!) but once you feel the lady respond accordingly you then switch your lead into "listening" mode and feel her balance points. This will tell you when it is time to de- accelerate her and re-direct her motion which is when you "talk" again and the conversation continues.


    Throughout this conversation you are engaged in communication and have constant connection but this is dynamic and this changes accordingly depending on who is talking or listening. Both parties are responsible for their own balance but it is the leads' job to facilitate the followers' balance and their lead should adjust accordingly.


    Each conversation should be equal with each party bringing equal energy to the discussion if one brings to much in any given move then that energy must be absorbing to bring things back into balance. This will be done by absorbing the energy into your frame and/or sending into the dance floor so that balance is maintained.


    However this is like unwanted noise in the converstaion that drowns out the message and makes it hard to talk and listen and wastes time and energy. If your technique is poor(bad lead, frame, connection, balance etc) you will produce allot of noise and you will repond to other noise but talking louder. This is why it sometime feels like an arguement out there and dancing becomes an effort with some people.


    You can only lead a move as fast as the follow can respond to it and stay on balance, if you lead 100% of the time you are not really in a conversation and will end up just pushing and pulling your lead all over the dance floor. There will be no "quite" points where you will be able to listen for your ladies' response until it is too late and realise that she is responding by walking off the dance floor!
    Last edited by ads; 12th-October-2007 at 12:18 AM.

  11. #31
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I get the feeling that those kinds of chronic injuries are mostly a risk for professional dancers. As an amateur I just don't chalk up the kind of hours that risk RSI.
    I meet plenty of modern jivers who suffer all kinds of niggles (shoulder, knee, wrist problems etc.) Lots of amateurs dance as many and sometimes more hours than professionals, and many more amateurs lack the kind of core strength training that helps prevent many injuries. (Although there are plenty of pros who lack this too.)

    I think it was DavidB who told me that wcs used to involve much harder push and pulls, until everyone started getting injured. That is when they realized they would need to get more sophisticated for people to last. If you think you can dance as well as you do now with less tension, then I would recommend it.

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I meet plenty of modern jivers who suffer all kinds of niggles (shoulder, knee, wrist problems etc.) Lots of amateurs dance as many and sometimes more hours than professionals, and many more amateurs lack the kind of core strength training that helps prevent many injuries. (Although there are plenty of pros who lack this too.)

    I think it was DavidB who told me that wcs used to involve much harder push and pulls, until everyone started getting injured. That is when they realized they would need to get more sophisticated for people to last. If you think you can dance as well as you do now with less tension, then I would recommend it.
    I've had serious spine-related problems for some years now, and in hindsight, it seems obvious that the way I was dancing was a huge contributory factor in this - my posture's never been the greatest, and I used to generate my lead chiefly from arms and shoulders, which is not a healthy thing, especially if there's a any real force involved.

    I agree that reducing the amount of tension used is desireable - but I think what's helped me a great deal is learning to maintain said tension in ways that keep the forces balanced through my whole body, rather than putting particular strain an specific areas. I certainly need this when dancing fast Lindy, as a great deal of it involves balancing your partner's momentum against your own, which generates a lot of force between you even though you're not using a forceful lead. Done wrongly over a long period, this will hurt.

  13. #33
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I meet plenty of modern jivers who suffer all kinds of niggles (shoulder, knee, wrist problems etc.) Lots of amateurs dance as many and sometimes more hours than professionals, and many more amateurs lack the kind of core strength training that helps prevent many injuries. (Although there are plenty of pros who lack this too.)
    I used to get RSI of the left shoulder, which later also affected the little finger and next little finger, which I am told came from the base of the neck - related to tugging of the arm.
    This then affected me going to the gym, as the left shoulder would not keep up with the right shoulder.

    This was from dancing with too many tuggers. One of the reasons I advocate gentle lead and follow.

    Once I got more selective of who I danced with (and also asked the tuggers to please be gentle with me), the RSI cleared up, but it took a while.

  14. #34
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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    This was from dancing with too many tuggers. One of the reasons I advocate gentle lead and follow.

    Once I got more selective of who I danced with (and also asked the tuggers to please be gentle with me), the RSI cleared up, but it took a while.
    I know we're getting further and further from topic here, but hey - it's the forum
    One of the instinctive things I used to do with followers who tugged, or who had a very rock-like follow was to use more force to get them to do what I wanted. That didn't help to have better dances, and it certainly didn't help prevent injury.

    Eventually, I learned to turn that around entirely - so now, when dancing with such followers, I gentle the lead down as much as I can without it vanishing entirely. This usually forces them to do one of two things: their own thing entirely, or to relax a bit so they can actually feel what I'm leading. Gratifyingly, the latter result is far more usual - and the technique has transformed quite a few potentially painful dances into very enjoyable ones.

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I know we're getting further and further from topic here, but hey - it's the forum
    One of the instinctive things I used to do with followers who tugged, or who had a very rock-like follow was to use more force to get them to do what I wanted. That didn't help to have better dances, and it certainly didn't help prevent injury.

    Eventually, I learned to turn that around entirely - so now, when dancing with such followers, I gentle the lead down as much as I can without it vanishing entirely. This usually forces them to do one of two things: their own thing entirely, or to relax a bit so they can actually feel what I'm leading. Gratifyingly, the latter result is far more usual - and the technique has transformed quite a few potentially painful dances into very enjoyable ones.
    was not meaning to go "off thread" but just to confirm Amir's post about RSI, and yes, I now also have a similar technique, I also step forward if they step back too far to release tension.

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    was not meaning to go "off thread" but just to confirm Amir's post about RSI, and yes, I now also have a similar technique, I also step forward if they step back too far to release tension.
    I call this tugging habit of some women "climbing up your arm". They use you to pull themselves forward - as if their legs couldn't do the job properly. My remedy is "giving your hand away". When they tug you follow in the direction they are pulling. It keeps keep the tension at the correct level and avoids injury - which is nice

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