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Thread: Jean Charles De Menezes

  1. #121
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    No, I don't think you can.
    Well, it's an extremely weak case, which is why I put lots of caveats in. But it's not obviously completely irrelevant

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    OK, thanks for clearing that up.

    In that case - since the thread is about determining whether there is blame for his death, and allocating that blame to the right parties - the point you are making is essentially trivial and also irrelevant.
    I thought the thread was about having ago at the Police ?? Nothing about blame ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    Maybe they should have planted a rucksack on him? Silly "elite" police. Not that it matters, it We can only be thankful that it was "Two elite firearms officers" who shot him. Think of the carnage if it had been the normal ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    They can not be allowed to use the fear culture they fostered to date as carte blanche to gun down "suspects". What next, Death squads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    going by the media reports in 2005 of his suspicious behaviour and the exemplary performance of the police of course I'm going to make different comments than now, when all we hear in an inquiry is the facts of: "Well he was just walking along minding his own business to catch the tube, he then sat down with his paper. Then we shot him in the face. 7 times."
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post


    Or do you think people were going "He's a suicide bomber! He's a suicide bomber! Don't panic! Don't panic, Mr Mainwaring! We have to kill him now!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You do know how ridiculous that sounds don't you ? Try "he turned around with a "beach barbie doll" in a plastic bag..end of" instead, to emphasis the fact that he was shot for carrying a plastic bag.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I hate the police they arrest me for going to Tango I hope they get whats coming

  3. #123
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I thought the thread was about having ago at the Police ?? Nothing about blame ??
    No, its not about having a go at the police. I note most of those quotes are from replies to your posts

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    No, its not about having a go at the police. I note most of those quotes are from replies to your posts
    Especially mine

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In that case - since the thread is about determining whether there is blame for his death, and allocating that blame to the right parties - the point you are making is essentially trivial and also irrelevant.
    Would you care to quote where that was established?

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Would you care to quote where that was established?
    from the very first post, where i mentioned "It seems the case now hinges on whether the MET broke health and safety laws. something they strenuously deny."

    I started this thread because the MET claim they have no case to answer, I think they have to take ALL of the blame and take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. A bit of honesty and less smoke and mirrors with composite pictures of not-at-all-alike people and excuses is in order.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ...In the ‘real world’ if Menezes had obeyed the law he would be alive today now back to the fantasy
    Blame the victim culture.

    If he had the right documents, in the same circumstances, he would still have been shot.

    You cannot know he would still be alive. One reason for not being back in Brazil is that their police, in the opinion of many, are not as good as ours. Life expectancy is certainly lower there.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    from the very first post, where i mentioned "It seems the case now hinges on whether the MET broke health and safety laws. something they strenuously deny."
    Phew. I'm glad you posted that. I was having a distinctly Alice-through-the-looking-glass moment there when I read Gav's post...

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    from the very first post, where i mentioned "It seems the case now hinges on whether the MET broke health and safety laws. something they strenuously deny."

    I started this thread because the MET claim they have no case to answer, I think they have to take ALL of the blame and take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. A bit of honesty and less smoke and mirrors with composite pictures of not-at-all-alike people and excuses is in order.
    Boy, you really have a hair up your ass (as the yanks say) about that picture!!

    Did you post a link?

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    from the very first post, where i mentioned "It seems the case now hinges on whether the MET broke health and safety laws. something they strenuously deny."

    I started this thread because the MET claim they have no case to answer, I think they have to take ALL of the blame and take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. A bit of honesty and less smoke and mirrors with composite pictures of not-at-all-alike people and excuses is in order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Phew. I'm glad you posted that. I was having a distinctly Alice-through-the-looking-glass moment there when I read Gav's post...
    You also mentioned what the media had reported and how some people had reacted.
    The media reports of the incident where what I quoted in my initial reply and what inspired me to say what I did. Therefore, Barry, I think you'll find that my comments on related matters are just as valid in this thread as yours are.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry
    Did you post a link?
    oh i thought i did - no wonder no one commented

    here it is. Its the dishonesty of using a half n half picture that annoys me. They are clearly hoping it makes it look difficult to tell them apart but if you look at the pictures individually, the similarity is mindbogglingly absent.

    Just so it's clear I've attached both headshots (awful sick pun intended). The Hussein one in the composite above is without the beard of course, it does help with the lie that they look like each other I'm sure


    on another note - you MUST read this... some evidence of how reliable eye witnesses are

    The polices own statements say 7 shots and mention the fact that JCdM was sitting down and THEN stood up when armed officers approached to see his "not normal hands" and that he was wearing a denim jacket. The witnesses stories vary quite a bit from that (understatement to say the least), one of them even says "and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out"



    More info here on other "mistaken" deaths.
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 5th-May-2011 at 10:53 PM.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    More info here on other "mistaken" deaths.
    Interesting that the "rules of engagement" quoted in that article say the police marksman "should reassess the situation after each shot". I wonder if they did that while unloading seven bullets into Jean Charles' head...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    You also mentioned what the media had reported and how some people had reacted.
    The media reports of the incident where what I quoted in my initial reply and what inspired me to say what I did. Therefore, Barry, I think you'll find that my comments on related matters are just as valid in this thread as yours are.
    I didn't say any of your posts were invalid, Gav.

    At first, you seemed to me to be saying 'It's his own fault, if he had gone home when he should have he'd still be alive'. I responded on that basis. Politely, by the way, whatever other posts there may have been.

    Then you complained that you were misunderstood so I asked and you cleared up what you were saying.

    What you were saying appeared to me to be trivial and not worth saying - trite, in fact - but they were your point of view and you posted, and I criticised, and that's what the forum is about.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Interesting that the "rules of engagement" quoted in that article say the police marksman "should reassess the situation after each shot". I wonder if they did that while unloading seven bullets into Jean Charles' head...
    I'm sorry, I know I've got a sick sense of humour, but I just found that really funny

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm sorry, I know I've got a sick sense of humour, but I just found that really funny
    I see what you mean Maybe they stopped after 3 shots, thought "hmm not sure". Fired again. "Probably enough. But a couple more" and then "oh ....one for good luck".

    It appears I am just as sick as you , but its a unique situation.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I see what you mean Maybe they stopped after 3 shots, thought "hmm not sure". Fired again. "Probably enough. But a couple more" and then "oh ....one for good luck".

    It appears I am just as sick as you , but its a unique situation.
    Make sure he's dead

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    isnt the "funniest joke in the world" as uttered by Spike Milligan ?


    anyway - the case is still ongoing and they've come out witha beauty to rival even the composite pictures (look can't someone just say "yes, they do look completely different...then i'll be happy)...this latest is...

    He has used cocaine. It was only detectable in his urine so all they can say is "he had it in the past" but despite it not effecting him on the morning of the incident the expert witness is questioned on what cocaine does to you, which included "may become aggressive" . So an irrelevance is included by association. Then of course the fact that there is NO evidence he was aggressive is not mentioned at this point, its left to us to make that massive leap to "therefore he must have been aggressive". I suppose he did press his head hard against the innocent policemans gun and attack 7 bullets with his brain, but that seems like a stretch

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    {snip stuff about cocaine}
    I think you're a tad unfair there, DS.

    The evidence about cocaine is being used - although possibly spuriously - to bolster the claim that he 'moved his hands in an unusual manner' and that he was behaving furtively (due to the well-known paranoia that as any fule kno affects all-without-exception persons who have taken cocaine, no matter how often, when, or how much).

    At least, that what I heard on PM last night.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    The evidence about cocaine is being used - although possibly spuriously - to bolster the claim that he 'moved his hands in an unusual manner' and that he was behaving furtively (due to the well-known paranoia that as any fule kno affects all-without-exception persons who have taken cocaine, no matter how often, when, or how much)..
    I ignored the "furtive" part of it as being TOO silly. The aggressive aspect I assumed would be more convincing "evidence" that they needed to shoot him. the "He looked at me funny" defense. But I find it hard to give any credence to any argument that uses "behaving furtively" and "moving his hands in a not normal manner" as an excuse to shoot someone. A double espresso or a late night and the morning shakes would, I imagine, be at least as bad at making you appear "not normal". Imagine if he had parkinsons ? The addition of stupid "evidence" on top of previous stupid "evidence" makes it eventually look like proper evidence - well to daft people anyway

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I ignored the "furtive" part of it as being TOO silly. The aggressive aspect I assumed would be more convincing "evidence" that they needed to shoot him. the "He looked at me funny" defense. But I find it hard to give any credence to any argument that uses "behaving furtively" and "moving his hands in a not normal manner" as an excuse to shoot someone. A double espresso or a late night and the morning shakes would, I imagine, be at least as bad at making you appear "not normal". Imagine if he had parkinsons ? The addition of stupid "evidence" on top of previous stupid "evidence" makes it eventually look like proper evidence - well to daft people anyway
    This is not an argument, but...

    Their argument goes as follows.
    First, we killed him because we thought he was Mr Islam Raghead, the noted suicide bomber. (Er --- so far unsuccessful.)
    Second, that was a reasonable belief.
    Third, we thought he represented a real and present danger to the public, and
    fourth, that too was a reasonable belief.

    The cocaine is introduced to say: we (the shooters) were told (by the obbo blokes) that he was behaving in a twitchy manner, which - seeing he was just a bloke on his way to work and had no idea there were any police anywhere around - might be difficult for you to believe. However, the cocaine might have made him twitchy, which gives a bit more credence to what the obbo guys said.

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