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Thread: Jean Charles De Menezes

  1. #41
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    you must have missed this from the court ??

    --------------------------------

    'Pinned down'
    Pausing to warn family members of the evidence he was about to give, Ivor said he saw Mr Menezes stand and advance.
    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.

    Two police officers followed Mr Menezes down to the platform
    "I grabbed Mr Menezes by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms against his sides," he said.
    ------------------------------
    no i didn't miss it. He "pinned down" a tube passenger who was then executed. Do you have some sort of a point ?

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Any kind of warning in the situation where you think you are chasing a suicide bomber are stupid and pointless. Give them any indication that you're onto them and they hit the button.
    So what do you think of the undercover officer who by his own testimony "shouted he's here and indicated to Mr Menezes with my right hand"?

    If you have to identify a potential bomber, surely it makes sense to be a bit more subtle about it? (If I was running the operation, he'd have shouted something like "What you starin' at, you w*nker?", which would have worked perfectly well for identifying the guy and probably wouldn't have aroused suspicions).

    Of course, in either case JCMD would still be dead. But it's a bit pathetic for the police to justify their actions on the grounds of "protecting the public" when the same actions probably wouldn't have worked if he had been a suicide bomber.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    So what do you think of the undercover officer who by his own testimony "shouted he's here and indicated to Mr Menezes with my right hand"?

    If you have to identify a potential bomber, surely it makes sense to be a bit more subtle about it? (If I was running the operation, he'd have shouted something like "What you starin' at, you w*nker?", which would have worked perfectly well for identifying the guy and probably wouldn't have aroused suspicions).

    Of course, in either case JCMD would still be dead. But it's a bit pathetic for the police to justify their actions on the grounds of "protecting the public" when the same actions probably wouldn't have worked if he had been a suicide bomber.
    I agree entirely, it's all a load of lies and half-truths.
    Unfortunately, yet another one of those situations where even if the total truth did come out, we probably wouldn't believe it now anyway.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    It seems that we invaded Iraq on the grounds that Saddam Hussein had illegal weapons of mass destruction. Oops, that wasn't entirely true, so the media at the time should've said that the combined forces had invaded the country of an innocent man.
    No, a country of mostly innocent men.

  5. #45
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    no i didn't miss it. He "pinned down" a tube passenger who was then executed. Do you have some sort of a point ?
    -


    No not a 'tube passenger ', here it is again, you must have missed it


    ---------------------------

    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.
    -----------------------------

    do you see the difference ? Terrorist / tube passenger

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    No not a 'tube passenger ', here it is again, you must have missed it
    ---------------------------
    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.
    -----------------------------
    do you see the difference ? Terrorist / tube passenger
    He said he COULD have been a terrorist. He wasn't. What he WAS was a tube passenger.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If you have to identify a potential bomber, surely it makes sense to be a bit more subtle about it? (If I was running the operation, he'd have shouted something like "What you starin' at, you w*nker?", which would have worked perfectly well for identifying the guy and probably wouldn't have aroused suspicions).

    I believe a few terrorist before they blow themselves up tend to be a bit nervous and jittery

    Mmmm

    What you staring at you w*** ker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Might at the time have resulted in 12 tube passenger self detonating and the men being charged with breach of the peace


    Why not just say ‘excuse is that paper a bomb ?’

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    do you see the difference ? Terrorist / tube passenger
    I do, what I don't see is where this mythical "judgement" came from. Apart from him looking "foreign" of course.

    What gets people about this one case, compared to other police deaths, is the way it looks like a premeditated extrajudicial execution. They followed a Tube passenger onto a Tube train, they then grabbed him, pinned him helpless to the ground, and deliberately shot him in the head.

    And somehow, no action in this sequence of events was a criminal offence.

  9. #49
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Might at the time have resulted in 12 tube passenger self detonating and the men being charged with breach of the peace
    Would you like to rephrase that in intelligible English so I can rebut it?

    Why not just say ‘excuse is that paper a bomb ?’
    Don't tell me - you're secretly a trainer for undercover police officers...

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I believe a few terrorist before they blow themselves up tend to be a bit nervous and jittery
    Do they? Which ones? When did you meet them ?

    I'd actually think the opposite - if I felt my purpose was absolutely just I'd probably be quite happy. Mind you then I'd also be, what i would consider to be, insane - so who knows !

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    28th July 2005 before the facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You say the policeman was wearing body armour, he no doubt had other identifying marks, yet the guy still ran? You also say he may not have been the aware the police were chasing him - are the police so thick they cant tell the difference between a man running for a train and a man running from them ? i'd doubt it. Also, Ive never heard any of these reports about the lack of coat and using a ticket, they cant have been very widely reported ! Im sure he knew enough English to understand 'STOP!'

    Rubbish. In society theres always 'us against them' - suits versus shop workers , cyclists versus car drivers, black vs white , football fan vs football fan , label versus label - in some quarters this can get quite nasty, but bombers are hardly a common occurrence.
    Before the facts
    ------------
    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.
    -----------------

    After the facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    He said he COULD have been a terrorist. He wasn't. What he WAS was a tube passenger.

    why didnt you say he was a tube passneger in July 2005 ?


    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Would you like to rephrase that in intelligible English so I can rebut it?
    Its not a good idea to shout at a jittery terrorist who you staring at you w*****

  12. #52
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Do they? Which ones? When did you meet them ?

    I'd actually think the opposite - if I felt my purpose was absolutely just I'd probably be quite happy. Mind you then I'd also be, what i would consider to be, insane - so who knows !
    The bus bomber one of the tube bombers

    Its all been reported

  13. #53
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Its not a good idea to shout at a jittery terrorist who you staring at you w*****
    It's a damn sight better than shouting "Here he is!" and pointing at him (which is what the undercover officer actually did).

    Because if you do that, any moderately paranoid terrorist (and terrorists tend to be paranoid: after all, we are all out to get them) will be instantly in "the game is up, might as well set the bomb off" mode. There's not really any concievable explanation other than police action.

    Whereas rude and abusive individuals on the tube are so common as to arouse little suspicion.

    Note also that my suggested phrase doesn't immediately imply to the terrorist that more people are on the way. If he thinks there's only one person to deal with, there's a lot more chance he'll spend at least a little time assessing the situation. If there are 2 armed police entering the carriage, that's all they need. Conversely, "Here he is!" could only be being said to someone else, so he's immediately going to know he's outnumbered, and he's more likely to go for the doomsday scenario.

    Of course, making any overt interaction is risky, but I think my suggestion is far less so than the one actually taken.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    -


    No not a 'tube passenger ', here it is again, you must have missed it


    ---------------------------

    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.
    -----------------------------

    do you see the difference ? Terrorist / tube passenger
    "could be a a suicide bomber" - practically anybody could be.

    The guy who did the actual shooting is probably exempt from blame. He was badly let down by the systems and the other people involved.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Would you like to rephrase that in intelligible English so I can rebut it?
    Not than I am questionning your ability to express youself or anything.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I'd actually think the opposite - if I felt my purpose was absolutely just I'd probably be quite happy.

    It's even been proven on clandestine film footage...

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    What's really funny about this is that I've been accused of setting the world to rights while reading The Sun
    Has that fekkin Twirly Bird been watching you take a crap again.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post

    why didn't you say he was a tube passenger in July 2005 ?
    going by the media reports in 2005 of his suspicious behaviour and the exemplary performance of the police of course I'm going to make different comments than now, when all we hear in an inquiry is the facts of: "Well he was just walking along minding his own business to catch the tube, he then sat down with his paper. Then we shot him in the face. 7 times."

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    going by the media reports in 2005 of his suspicious behaviour and the exemplary performance of the police of course I'm going to make different comments than now, when all we hear in an inquiry is the facts of: "Well he was just walking along minding his own business to catch the tube, he then sat down with his paper. Then we shot him in the face. 7 times."
    oh hindsight yes a wonderful thing you keep missing this 'fact'

    ---------------------------

    He judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.
    -----------------------------

    Im not talking about the top dogs here im talking about the people on the ground and would you have reacted differently

    Thats me done me Lord , not guilty

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    oh hindsight yes a wonderful thing you keep missing this 'fact'
    So at the time he jumped over the barrier and ran, and in hindsight he did nothing of the kind? At the time he was carrying a rucksack, and in hindsight he was carrying a newspaper? I think that's stretching the term somewhat.

    Looks to me like the officers at the scene simply panicked, with tragic results. And that looks like the result of poor briefing, poor communication and poor training.

    I feel very sorry for all concerned in this affair - but it's extremely clear that it could and should have been very easily avoided. Far better all the facts all be brought out into the open and worked through, so that it doesn't happen again. If we just say "Understandable mistake - accidents happen" you can bet your bottom dollar that it will happen again. And again. And probably get more and more commonplace. That's not a thing any of us want to see, I'm thinking.

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