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Thread: Jean Charles De Menezes

  1. #201
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I seem to remember one of the police witnesses in the trial admitting that once JCdM had gone into the station (given all the surrounding circumstances) there was nothing he could have done which would have prevented police from shooting him.
    Yes, I'd also heard that. But then one has to wonder about the relevance of the testimony about JCdM having traces of cocaine and therefore being nervous and jittery like a suicide bomber. One might almost think the main reason was to suggest it only happened because he was a druggie.

    The smearing seems to have worked. I was somewhat depressed to read this as one of the "most recommended" comments on the BBC "have your say" webpage:

    The fact of the matter is Mr. Menezes ran away from armed police officers. It may sound harsh and his family has my sympathy - but what on earth did he expect?
    It seems everyone has heard every possible reason Mr Menezes "deserved it". Not so much about things like the police altering the log after the event, refusing the IPCC access, and the officers involved conferring en masse with solicitors before making their witness statements (all documented in the IPCC report).

  2. #202
    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    s38, perhaps as you say, you were too close to the original 7/7 bombings, so this in an emotive issue for you. Some of the scenes from that day must have been horrific, no doubt.

    The police are in a bit of a knife edge situation, that is true - kill the wrong person and you're in for a PR disaster, miss a suicide bomber and it will be even worse.

    The problem is they are playing with people's lives here. If I **** up at my job, then the worst that can happen is a few people don't get paid - not the end of the world. And if I do **** up, I and my direct managers have to be accountable for it. I have no problems with holding my hands up if I have made a mistake. So when you have people's lives at stake - whether that be those to be potentially killed by suicide bombers or those that could be accidentally by the police trying to do their job - you'd better make double ****ing sure you have the right person when you decide to implement a shoot-to-kill policy.

    Yes the police have a difficult job but they made mistakes, the evidence is there for all to see. A difficult job should not be an excuse for basic failures. Why should they not be held accountable? Their mistake was so monumental that JCdM really could have been any young to middle aged male - that includes you, me, your friend. If it had been one of them I'm sure as hell you'd be calling for accountability and justice. I don't see how JCdM was any different.

  3. #203
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Others have already pointed out some of this, but the constant holier-than-thou attitude is getting irritating.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    The back ground some people seem to have forgotten, its important we do remember the background to this

    BBC NEWS | INDEPTH | LONDON ATTACKS
    Please change the record, stewart. As BS has already pointed out, it's precisely in times like these that the control structure needs to work. Or did you miss the first set-piece fight betwen the Marines and the Aliens*?
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I still dont get it , when the next 100 people get blown up because the Police didnt react in time what will people say then ??
    To repeat - again - one of the major criticisms here is that the Police, er, didn't react in time. Had JCdM actually been a suicide bomber, he had ample opportunity to inflict serious casualties before the police got the finger out. They let him board buses twice, then enter a subway, the day after buses were bombed. Ignore for a moment the shooting at Stockwell: what happened before that was awful. If I were a regular bus-user in London, worried about getting on a bus on 22nd July 2005, I'd be seriously annoyed about the Met.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Maybe as I was too involved, very near the bus bomb and saw all the cards letters etc at kings cross i have a different view on it rather then the ivory tower approach.
    Aw diddums - "I was, like, nearly there - I saw the debris - so my opinion is more valid". B******s, frankly. Were the 18 witnesses on the subway carriage up in that ivory tower as well, stewart? I went through the doors of Glasgow Airport 3 hours before 2 nutters drove a Jeep full of gas canisters into it in July - I still reckon a) my opinion's worth no more than yours on that matter, and b) John Smeaton's a bit of a glory-hunting muppet.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Of course it was a **** up , things have been learnt it DOESNT happen every week. This constant evil campaign against those on the ground

    Why wouldn't they lie re what they shouted if their jobs are on the line. They risked their lives to save us and some people treat them like s***
    The statement by Ian Blair afterwards suggests that, in terms of the culture of denial existing in the Met, lessons have not been learned. This is at least as important as the procedural errors, because it impacts on the public's confidence in the Police force.

    As to the armed officers on the ground, I'd ask you this. Bearing in mind that their job ultimately involves running round killing people, does it not worry you at all, that they might lie in order to keep it?

    *Faulty analogy, I know - Gorman should have pulled his squad out the moment it became clear that heavy weapons fire would have damaged the heat exchangers. But the breakdown in C&C from there did result in most of the squad dying and, er, the heat exchangers being damaged .

  4. #204
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I’m not aware the police go around London shooting the wrong terrorist weekly
    The wrong terrorist ? As apposed to innocent Brazilians you mean

    Maybe the next time a bomber goes to press a button an offer of evening classes in pottery perhaps ?
    Is simple identification too much too ask ?

  5. #205
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post

    Why should they not be held accountable? Their mistake was so monumental that JCdM really could have been any young to middle aged male - that includes you, me, your friend. If it had been one of them I'm sure as hell you'd be calling for accountability and justice. I don't see how JCdM was any different.
    Never said they shouldn’t be

    Never said people at a higher level don’t need to answer for their mistakes

    Never said there shouldn't be accountability and we should LEARN from this

    what gets me is if someone 'regardless of the **** up' at the time if he genuinely believe he was stopping a terrorist from blowing up a tube carriage , why should he be sacked or made to fill like scum ??

    He probably thinking , I didn’t shout 'arm police' did I, as per pg 23 section 4a of the rule book. There goes my job my pension my lifely hood

    I don’t see them as gun ho shoot on a whim type people and that’s the difference.

    Police have to act sometimes with split seconds to decide

    re the one below the 'drop the knife' didn’t work did it


    Officer stabbed to death 'tackling mugger' - Telegraph

    Perhaps it would have been better to shoot the guy dead instead but hey at least they used no lethal force and only one officer died

  6. #206
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato
    Why should they not be held accountable?
    Never said they shouldn’t be

    Never said people at a higher level don’t need to answer for their mistakes

    Never said there shouldn't be accountability and we should LEARN from this

    why should he be sacked or made to fill like scum ??
    At no point have I said they should be made to feel like scum. But sacked, quite possibily yes. If not, what the hell does 'accountability' mean to you? I mean why even bother doing an investigation if you're not going to take any actions?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    He probably thinking , I didn’t shout 'arm police' did I, as per pg 23 section 4a of the rule book. There goes my job my pension my lifely hood
    You're implying, if I'm correct, that shouting 'Armed police, stop' is a fiddly little rule that anyone could forget, and is in fact not important when it comes to this situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Police have to act sometimes with split seconds to decide
    Which is why the information they act on must be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    re the one below the 'drop the knife' didn’t work did it

    Officer stabbed to death 'tackling mugger' - Telegraph
    That has no bearing on the JCdM case at all.

  7. #207
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post

    That has no bearing on the JCdM case at all.

    Yes it does its called hindsight (lack of info etc what was going on etc etc) and wrong judgement call

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Others have already pointed out some of this, but the constant holier-than-thou attitude is getting irritating.
    I went through the doors of Glasgow Airport 3 hours before 2 nutters drove a Jeep full of gas canisters into it in July -
    Can you clarify EXACTLY what you want to happen rather the hurl insults at me and the police generally ?

    i.e. who to be sacked who imprison etc etc

    Everyone agrees there were cockups , so what do you want to see from it ??


    If it had happen in Glasgow im sure members of the general public would have put the boot in and added a few rounds into the ‘alleged terrorist’ or ‘nutters’ as you now call them

  8. #208
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Yes it does its called hindsight (lack of info etc what was going on etc etc) and wrong judgement call



    Can you clarify EXACTLY what you want to happen rather the hurl insults at me and the police generally ?

    i.e. who to be sacked who imprison etc etc

    Everyone agrees there were cockups , so what do you want to see from it ??


    If it had happen in Glasgow im sure members of the general public would have put the boot in and added a few rounds into the ‘alleged terrorist’ or ‘nutters’ as you now call them
    Stewart if you continue posting like this, no one is even going to bother replying !

  9. #209
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Stewart if you continue posting like this, no one is even going to bother replying !
    In Glasgow there were have a go heros

    Im just asking what people want

    'Probably should be sacked' sounds wooly

    As you say best to leave it

  10. #210
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Can you clarify EXACTLY what you want to happen rather the hurl insults at me and the police generally ?
    1. Cressida Dick should be disciplined.
    2. Charlies 2 and 12 should be disciplined
    3. 'James' should be disciplined.

    Problem is, none of them will be. The MPS seem so concerned to avoid the appearance that one person is entirely to blame that they appear to have forgotten that it may be possible to assign a portion of the blame to a number of people.

    It wasn't entirely down to any one person that JCdM died, but all these people made culpable mistakes. 2 and 12 didn't say 'ARMED POLICE' nor did they have the code word for lethal force. James failed to alert 1600 that at least 2 of his team were of the opinion that the "u/i male" was NOT Nettle Tip, whilst at the same time saying that he was 'fairly sure' it was. Dick failed to ensure that the operation was conducted carefully and to exercise adequate control, and failed to ensure, given the chaotic circumstances, that her instructions to 'stop' were not misinterpreted to 'kill'.

    (One witness recalls her saying 'Stop at all costs'; she says she just said 'Stop', as in 'stop and detain'. The SO12 team says no positive ID was ever made; 1600 witnesses all say they thought a positive ID had been made; a log book was amended: two words were added to make it seem more like SO12 had not been positive.)

    These people all believed they were involved in a considered, counter-terrorist response operating under carefully crafted rules of engagement. Reading the IPCC report makes it sound far more like the Keystone Kops than anyone should feel comfortable with.

  11. #211
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    1. Cressida Dick should be disciplined.
    2. Charlies 2 and 12 should be disciplined
    3. 'James' should be disciplined.
    agree

    End of thread


    ps how do you discipline DJ ?

  12. #212
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ps how do you discipline DJ ?
    Ask the certain ladies he usually pays to do it?

  13. #213
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Ask the certain ladies he usually pays to do it?
    Absolutely - they're not cheap either, I can tell you.

  14. #214
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    agree

    End of thread


    ps how do you discipline DJ ?
    It would be usual not to add anything after the words 'End of thread'!

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Today I walked past the shops and heard someone shouting "Bushu".
    -----


    I can put myself in the shoes of an armed officer approaching a tube train containing a known terrorist after my colleagues had fouled up and let onboard. Feeling that I was perhaps seconds away from a tragedy. Feeling that my life might end in the next thirty seconds. Heart pounding from the exertion of running, and from fear. I would not forget to shout armed police, for the simple reason that there were other armed police around primed to shoot at any unidentified person brandishing a gun. In the circumstance that shout may well be almost incoherent, but I would trust that my colleagues would know what it was. Faced with the "terrorist", and not knowing if he was carrying or not, with mutiple lifes at risk, knowing it was down to me, I would take the safest option for the sake of the majority. At worst I would think I was killing an unarmed terrorist. Just a little bit I might expect to be treated as a hero for putting my life on the line.


    ---
    I think I could ask 100 of the other passers by next day if they had heard anybody shouting "Big Issue" and get an overwhelming negative response.

  16. #216
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Everybody who has taken part on this thread should read this article – right to the very last paragraph.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Everybody who has taken part on this thread should read this article – right to the very last paragraph.
    Should, but too idle. What does the last paragraph say?

  18. #218
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Should, but too idle. What does the last paragraph say?
    Here:
    The Register noted some time ago that a Home Office statement on the subject of de Menezes' immigration status (which was questioned by 'sources' immediately after the shooting) did not confirm categorically that the Indefinite Leave to Remain stamp in his passport was forged. We would therefore like to draw readers' attention to the note on page 21 of the Stockwell One Report which states: "Evidence emerged during the course of the criminal trial into the Health and Safety charge that Mr de Menezes was lawfully in the country on 22 July 2005."

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Here:
    Oh, glad I made the effort then.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Everybody who has taken part on this thread should read this article – right to the very last paragraph.
    Except those who, like me, read the whole IPCC report and therefore don't need The Register's summary and interpretation of same (good though it is).

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