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Thread: Jean Charles De Menezes

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    Jean Charles De Menezes

    I'd originally posted this in the blog section, but its a suitable topic for outrage and indignation.

    Quote Originally Posted by me from blog
    The Jean Charles De Menezes trial goes on, and because one of the police excuses
    for the biggest c*ck-up since John Holmes (don't google for this) was that police had trouble identifying Jean Charles i.e. they thought he was someone else.- they produced a composite photo of the 2. Here is is. You may notice what I noticed. The 2 people look ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE EACH OTHER. Sure, splitting the picture down the middle for the composite fools the eye into thinking "ooh they do like a bit alike" but thats only down to the symmetry. 2 eyes, 2 ears etc..check - must be alike? NO. They could split the photo with Nicole Kidman and you'd say the same similarity.

    The more I look at the image the more hilarious it becomes: look at the width of the face, the skin colour, the ears, the mouth...its laughable. The only similarity I can actually see; is the hairline. Based on that "match" they would have shot Dale Winton if he'd taken the tube after leaving that flat that day. (in fact Dale matches skin colour too - maybe he would have received an extra bullet or 2 "to be sure")

    Of course the other issue is that the armed police had no idea what they were doing so even a poor composite picture is a red herring - it certainly sounds like they would have shot him even if he had a beard and a pirate hat.

    Interestingly, early reports like this, have lots about how suspicious Jean Charles was acting, that he was running, that he ignored police warnings...strangely NONE of this is coming up in court now. Could it have been lies? A fabrication? Throw as much disinformation at the media hoping they won't bring it up when the truth started to come out? Looks like it. Seems to be working too.
    I note the media is not comparing the official line from then with the case in court now.

    Interestingly - most of us believed the hype back then. Look here and start from the beginning of the thread. We were all assuming that at least SOME elements of the original media reports were true. e.g. he was running from the police - so WHY was he running etc..

    If you look at the cctv picture in this article you can clearly say Jean Charles leaping the barrier and running away from the police who are clearly identified as such. He barely had time too pick up that metro he's carrying - probably had to do a forward roll, grab and continue to get it Although you cannot see the rucksack he was carrying, he dropped it out of shot and he's about to pick it up

    It seems the case now hinges on whether the MET broke health and safety laws. something they strenuously deny. It was a humane kill and they didn't prolong his suffering. They also, I believe, cordoned off the scene afterwards so no one would trip over the body. No case to answer. Clearly.

    If only he'd shouted "police" and held up his hands like "Ivor the undercover cop". All future bombers should bear that in mind - as solid identification is irrelevant to the MET, shouting "Police" will buy you that extra few seconds to allow you to detonate your..er...newspaper. Hmm. Maybe they should have planted a rucksack on him? Silly "elite" police. Not that it matters, it still won't be judged criminal, despite it clearly BEING criminal.

    We can only be thankful that it was "Two elite firearms officers" who shot him. Think of the carnage if it had been the normal ones.
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 9th-October-2007 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Interestingly - most of us believed the hype back then. Look here and start from the beginning of the thread. We were all assuming that at least SOME elements of the original media reports were true. e.g. he was running from the police - so WHY was he running etc..
    I don't think it was "most". I certainly wouldn't agree with "we".

    I still stand by what I said at the time.

    I've just read that Jean Charles was carrying a newspaper – and no rucksack. It was the undercover cop who had a rucksack. Did the armed police shoot the wrong man?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.
    He was entirely innocent of the crime that he was shot for.

    Who really is innocent? We've all broken one law or other in our lives. Does that mean it's OK for the police to shoot us "by accident"?

    EDIT: Oh, and "maybe" innocent of terrorism? You're not sure?
    Last edited by ducasi; 9th-October-2007 at 01:44 PM.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I don't think it was "most". I certainly wouldn't agree with "we".
    I'd say most, in fact I did - you were the exception I do realise but the vast majority are "most" And "we" refers to me and anyone else who assumed some of the media reports were correct.

    Sorry for not mentioning you were right


    Did the armed police shoot the wrong man?
    er...yes

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    He was entirely innocent of the crime that he was shot for.
    I think even a thicko like me has worked that out, but ten out of ten for stating the bleedin' obvious

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Who really is innocent? We've all broken one law or other in our lives. Does that mean it's OK for the police to shoot us "by accident"?
    The point is he shouldn't even have been here, as Gav has already stated. Do keep up Ducasi.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post


    If only he'd shouted "police" and held up his hands like "Ivor the undercover cop". All future bombers should bear that in mind - as solid identification is irrelevant to the MET, shouting "Police" will buy you that extra few seconds to allow you to detonate your..er...newspaper. Hmm. Maybe they should have planted a rucksack on him? Silly "elite" police. Not that it matters, it still won't be judged criminal, despite it clearly BEING criminal.

    We can only be thankful that it was "Two elite firearms officers" who shot him. Think of the carnage if it had been the normal ones.

    Next time a bus bomb explodes stand next to it (far enough away not get injured of course)

    Travel on the london tube for the next few days

    I can tell you from personal experience EVERYONE with a rucksack or who looked 'shifty' was being looked at. If every londoner had carried a gun in the aftermath there would have been a blood bath re 'mistakes'

    'Solid identification' what after the bomb has gone off ???

    whats 'solid identification'

    you dont know exactly what happen neither do I but ill take into account the circumtances at the time

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.


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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.
    I am certain that you do not mean it that way Gav, but many people are unfortunately influenced by the fact that a person is not a local resident with the implication that he/she will act and think differently from "us" in a non-acceptable way.

    In the Mc Cann case, there appears to be a lot hostility towards the English from the Portuguese authorities.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.
    What I am saying is: It was very wrong then! It is very wrong now! Those that conceived and planned this operation should face the full weight of the law, if they are allowed to continue, the next innocent might not be someone who has overstayed their tourist visa..

    They can not be allowed to use the fear culture they fostered to date as carte blanche to to gun down "suspects". What next, Death squads?

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    In the Mc Cann case, there appears to be a lot hostility towards the English from the Portuguese authorities.
    The McCanns were on holiday, not wondering around London, indefinately, with no Visa.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    eh? He got shot in the head 7 times because they thought he was someone else. In what way is he NOT an innocent man.

    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally
    Ahh, perhaps he deserved maybe a light maiming ? maybe just remove an arm and an eye or something ?

    and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    If only he had done anything other than tried to travel on the underground, he'd be alive today Good argument. Top marks

    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.

    "Maybe" innocent of terrorism ? er..no. Its not a "maybe" situation. The fact that there may have been other things he was doing illegally, whatever they may be, are entirely irrelevant to being shot several times in the head.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I note the media is not comparing the official line from then with the case in court now.
    One of the more depressing aspects of this case is the way it has left so many of us cynical.

    The problem for the police is that at this stage anything they say in their defense won't be believed. I'd have more sympathy about that if they hadn't previously abused their position of trust so badly.

    The story from surveillance officer "Ivor" (BBC NEWS | UK | Menezes officer relives shooting) strikes me as risible. Did he really point at a suspected suicide bomber and shout "he's here"? If so, he's fscking lucky it wasn't a real suicide bomber!

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    What I am saying is: It was very wrong then! It is very wrong now! Those that conceived and planned this operation should face the full weight of the law, if they are allowed to continue, the next innocent might not be someone who has overstayed their tourist visa..

    They can not be allowed to use the fear culture they fostered to date as carte blanche to to gun down "suspects". What next, Death squads?
    Must have missed the news does this happen every week ?

    Fear culture 'fostered to date' ??

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    I am certain that you do not mean it that way Gav, but many people are unfortunately influenced by the fact that a person is not a local resident with the implication that he/she will act and think differently from "us" in a non-acceptable way.

    In the Mc Cann case, there appears to be a lot hostility towards the English from the Portuguese authorities.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    What I am saying is: It was very wrong then! It is very wrong now! Those that conceived and planned this operation should face the full weight of the law, if they are allowed to continue, the next innocent might not be someone who has overstayed their tourist visa..

    They can not be allowed to use the fear culture they fostered to date as carte blanche to to gun down "suspects". What next, Death squads?
    It was wrong and it is wrong.

    Please read carefully before ranting. I was not saying that there was anything wrong with him because he was foreign, nor that he deserved to be shot because he was here illegally. I was merely arguing against the media's use of the word 'innocent'.
    I did not, and am not saying that he deserved his fate, he didn't.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The point is he shouldn't even have been here, as Gav has already stated. Do keep up Ducasi.
    As plenty of other people have said, that is entirely beside the point.

    Maybe they would have some other poor bugger to gun down instead. Maybe it would have been the under-cover cop carrying the rucksack who most witnesses seem to have mistaken for Jean Charles?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but I do get annoyed by the constant press bullsh1t about the "innocent man".
    I'm not saying he deserved to be shot for it, but he was in this country illegally and if he had returned to his own country as the law required, he would still be alive today.
    Innocent of terrorism? maybe, innocent? No.
    It's not bullsh1t. His immigration status was irrelevant in the context of what happened. So it's quite correct to refer to him as innocent.

    Here's hoping you're never on a jury - looks like the victim of the crime will have to be spotless before you start looking at the evidence against the accused, eh?

    And as Ducasi has pointed out, there's no "maybe" about JCdM's terrorist credentials.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    ...The point is he shouldn't even have been here, as Gav has already stated. Do keep up Ducasi.
    Perhaps the point is that the armed police should not have been there either, chasing the wrong man, whilst the actual suspected terrorists were .... doing what?

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    eh? He got shot in the head 7 times because they thought he was someone else. In what way is he NOT an innocent man.



    Ahh, perhaps he deserved maybe a light maiming ? maybe just remove an arm and an eye or something ?



    If only he had done anything other than tried to travel on the underground, he'd be alive today Good argument. Top marks


    "Maybe" innocent of terrorism ? er..no. Its not a "maybe" situation. The fact that there may have been other things he was doing illegally, whatever they may be, are entirely irrelevant to being shot several times in the head.
    DS your an expert

    Assume this scenario it 12th July 2005 (not related Menezes case)

    You have a man running away from you with a ruck sack on his back about to get on the tube

    you shout Armed Police stop

    he doesnt stop

    Do you shoot him not shoot him

    Do stop the train

    Do you try and get him at the next station ?

    Turns out he is a tourist that doesnt speak English

    Turns out when you go to stop the train he blows up the carriage ?

    No win isnt it ?

    I think lessons need to be learned but did they set out to kill an innocent man , no

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I can tell you from personal experience EVERYONE with a rucksack or who looked 'shifty' was being looked at.
    According to the current reports, Charles De Menezes wasn't carrying a rucksack. So why would you have thought that he was? Because the initial reports said so, and the police were careful not to deny it.

    Hard to believe they didn't know they were misleading everyone, however, whatever Blair may say about "not having been informed". In his position it's simple: either he knew, and he's lying, or he didn't know, and he's incompetent. In neither case should he keep his job.

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    Re: Jean Charles De Menezes

    It seems that we invaded Iraq on the grounds that Saddam Hussein had illegal weapons of mass destruction. Oops, that wasn't entirely true, so the media at the time should've said that the combined forces had invaded the country of an innocent man.

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