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Thread: Slotted or Circular???

  1. #41
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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    so now that there has been constructive answers to my original question of slotted or circular
    There have? I must have missed those...

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    , and as I now understand from most of you it is better to dance slotted but be able to adapt to rotational should a certain move require it ,
    No no no no no...

    They're different styles, and they're both equally valid. Really.

    However, lots of less-experienced people dance rotational "by accident", for various reasons mostly due to poor technique. But dancing rotationally on purpose is fine, as long as you know what you're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    my next part of this is .... how much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth and should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??
    Perhaps I have deviated from the original post too much and this should be redirected on another thread
    Errrmmm... I'm not sure I understand. But I certainly wouldn't try to enforce slotted dancing with "pressure".

    On the other hand, some moves, if led well, do sort-of enforce slotted dancing - Manhattans and cross-body leads, for example. But even those can be done rotationally - well, sort-of

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jemessex
    , and as I now understand from most of you it is better to dance slotted but be able to adapt to rotational should a certain move require it ,



    sorry, rephrase that to...most of you seem to prefer to dance slotted....blah blah

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    I interpreted the original post as:

    Axiom 1). MJ followers are encouraged to step (run) through a turn by some teachers.
    Axiom 2). Stepping through a turn will necessarily make you travel as you change weight between feet (*). Look here's a video that shows a travelling turn -- and look the turn is stepped.

    From axioms 1 and 2, MJ followers -- that are taught be teachers that encourage them to step (run) through a turn -- will necessarily travel, i.e. will not turn and return "on the spot".
    You have it exactly. Stepped turns naturally travel.

    Here, for example, is a demonstration of a Ceroc workshop by teacher and regular partner, in a slotted style. Notice that every time the girl does an "on the spot" ACW return she ends up slightly to the left of her start position (and the opposite for a CW turn). She's taking much smaller steps than beginners often do, but it's still there. 0:25-0:30 has three examples in quick succession.


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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I don't get it - why? I don't think at an intermediate level most people worry about this.

    I think an earlier post nailed it - in MJ you can dance either slotted, circular or all the variations inbetween. So it makes sense to get good at both and alternate between them as your mood takes you.
    I think if you learn to dance slotted then you can do the forms as this requires the most precise technique.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    You have it exactly. Stepped turns naturally travel.
    It's all clear now. Thanks for clarifying

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    I think if you learn to dance slotted then you can do the forms as this requires the most precise technique.
    I know several people who mainly dance slotted who struggle to dance circular. Just because something requires more technique doesn't mean you will automatically get something else. (Ballet dancers don't automatically get hip hop, for example.)

    But I agree that it may be best to start with slotted dancing because
    a. there is less of it
    b. it is easier than controlled circular dancing. (to be continued...!)

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    I think if you learn to dance slotted then you can do the forms as this requires the most precise technique.
    Not really: it dosn't matter the form - leading is leading is leading. If you are trying to get the follower to be in a specific place or travel down a specific path, then it's leading.

    You can either lead it so they go where you want or adapt your motion and leading to accomodate the follower traveling away from the path you want. The first option is very domineering and controlling, the second is very relaxed and 'in tune' with your partner. Normally people meet somewhere in the middle.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Not really: it dosn't matter the form - leading is leading is leading. If you are trying to get the follower to be in a specific place or travel down a specific path, then it's leading.

    .
    This is true but I think it requires more precise technique to stay in the slot because it is so evident when you are not in it and it is poor technique that has usually caused it. Dancing circular it is easier to hide faults.

    If a follow is off balnace and rotates because of it it does not matter if the guy dances in a slot. The dance will become rotational as you follow the follow around the dance floor.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    This is true but I think it requires more precise technique to stay in the slot because it is so evident when you are not in it and it is poor technique that has usually caused it.
    As I noted earlier, it is natural to "rotate" on-the-spot returns, and similar things apply to other moves. This is only "poor technique" if one believes that dancing should be slotted. Otherwise it's rather good technique.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    As I noted earlier, it is natural to "rotate" on-the-spot returns, and similar things apply to other moves. This is only "poor technique" if one believes that dancing should be slotted. Otherwise it's rather good technique.
    It is poor technique if you do not go where you are lead if youare lead in a rotational move then that is what you do. Following to me is simply taking the path of least resistance.

    Why is it natural to rotate on the spot returns?

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    It is poor technique if you do not go where you are lead if youare lead in a rotational move then that is what you do. Following to me is simply taking the path of least resistance.

    Why is it natural to rotate on the spot returns?
    I believe the Martin is suggesting that it's natural to "step-through" returns rather than to spin entirely on one foot. Stepping through requires some translational movement, even if it is only small.

    I personally consider them to be different types of turns myself, and the return should be on a single leg on the spot but he does have a point that many ladies do not do this.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I believe the Martin is suggesting that it's natural to "step-through" returns rather than to spin entirely on one foot. Stepping through requires some translational movement, even if it is only small.

    I personally consider them to be different types of turns myself, and the return should be on a single leg on the spot but he does have a point that many ladies do not do this.
    I also wrote previously that a reason why ladies step through a turn is they do not wait to be prepped (which gives you the wind up to do a pivot turn) or the guy does not prep the lady.

    I also teach that two of the best ways to improve your dancing in class is to actively listen and actively observe.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    This is true but I think it requires more precise technique to stay in the slot because it is so evident when you are not in it and it is poor technique that has usually caused it. Dancing circular it is easier to hide faults.
    Not quite true: if you were dancing perfectly circular, then the flaws would be fairly evedent, but most MJ is danced in a sort of amorphous blob shape.

    "Poor technique"... is it poor technique for a follower to rail themselves to a slot? Rather than actually follow and go slightly askew? Is it poor technique for a lead to send the follower down a vague slot and expect them to align to it magnetically? It's a technique. And it works. But does that make it "good"?

    A good lead can cover for a poor follower easier in a non-structured form. A good follower can cover for a poor lead easier in a structured form.
    The structure of the dance shouldn't really have any bearing on the precision of the lead required to lead someone: it just highlights it and causes different issues for the follower.

    {IMHO of course }

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    A good lead can cover for a poor follower easier in a non-structured form.
    Does anyone else disagree with this?

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    You have it exactly. Stepped turns naturally travel.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that travelling turns are naturally stepped. You can step turn on the spot but you can't do a travelling turn without stepping - not unless you're on ice or roller skates.

    I've been watching dancers who lead the lady out of their slot and have worked out what some of them do and don't do. The thing they don't do is open the door to let the lady travel down her slot and the thing they do is lead the lady diagonally out of her slot - in a L/R hand hold they lead the lady forward and to their right. This starts the whole spokes on a wheel thing which takes up so much space. Although it's more like one of those drawings you get with a Spirograph.

    If you are leading a lady down her slot you need to clear it by getting your body out of the way. And then you need to lead her straight down it by applying tension or compression in that single plane.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Does anyone else disagree with this?
    I've stopped trying to even understand Gadget's posts

    It's nice to know he's there as sometimes there's nobody else to disagree with. A bit like a corn you can scratch when nothing else is itching

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ...A good lead can cover for a poor follower easier in a non-structured form...
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Does anyone else disagree with this?
    I have had dances with two first timers lately who seemed to have the view that they could not do MJ, so they were going to dance the way they knew regardless. With one it was Salsa. The other alleged she did "street dance". (It was no street I recognised.) They were both well in their own zone, and into the music.
    Following my own "First time, Fun!" dictum I just tried to follow what they were doing, occasionally inserting an MJ move. I certainly had enormous fun, and both partners gave every indication of enjoying themselves too. They both loved to dance.
    Non-structured it certainly was, and it flowed with the music. However for 2/3 or more of the time I would say I was cooperating rather than leading, and it is beyond my imagination how I could have lead throughout and had anything like the dance experience.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I have had dances with two first timers lately who seemed to have the view that they could not do MJ, so they were going to dance the way they knew regardless. With one it was Salsa. The other alleged she did "street dance". (It was no street I recognised.) They were both well in their own zone, and into the music.
    Following my own "First time, Fun!" dictum I just tried to follow what they were doing, occasionally inserting an MJ move. I certainly had enormous fun, and both partners gave every indication of enjoying themselves too. They both loved to dance.
    Non-structured it certainly was, and it flowed with the music. However for 2/3 or more of the time I would say I was cooperating rather than leading, and it is beyond my imagination how I could have lead throughout and had anything like the dance experience.
    I think this is really common. And there's nothing wrong with it either. The objective with beginners is to get them partner dancing. And if you're holding on while you let them do disco, hip-hop, Scottish Country Dancing, sword dancing or whatever, they are getting the feel for dancing with a partner. If they keep coming back they will get the idea in the end. IMHO, it's much easier to recalibrate a lady's dancing from a different dance than it is to teach a guy who has never danced.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You can step turn on the spot
    Indeed I can, but I don't find it natural. I can't do fast stepped turns on the spot. Well... I can if I stand on one foot and only use the other foot to "paddle", but that's not really "stepping" per se.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Indeed I can, but I don't find it natural. I can't do fast stepped turns on the spot. Well... I can if I stand on one foot and only use the other foot to "paddle", but that's not really "stepping" per se.
    I wouldn't call that a stepped turn as I think a step involves a weight change from one foot to the other. You can have a weight change and not travel in your turns. I'm not sure why you'd want to though

    To go back a bit, I think we're all clear what slotted is. However, I don't think we're all talking about the same thing when we talk about circular moves. I think there's two kinds. There's the kind where partners deliberately rotate and sort of walk around each other: for example the basket walk-around. This is a perfectly nice move and is not slotted in any way. Then there's the other kind that just takes up too much room - IMHO it's just slotted dancing done in an untidy way. It's mostly caused by the guy not getting out of the way, and exacerbated by him continually leading the lady to his right. I don't think those guys are choosing to lead in that way. They're doing it out of ignorance - IMHO they are badly served by their, so called, teachers

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