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Thread: Slotted or Circular???

  1. #21
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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Progressing around the dance floor.

    Hey, it's an idea whose time has come
    They do this in Bug, the Nordic version of MJ. The timing and the moves seem the same, but the dancers progress around the floor. One immediate advantage is that you don't have to move the partners around between tracks in competitions.

    If we had both versions we could have the static dancers in the middle and progressive dancers circling around the outside. A bit like cowboys and indians.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    No, they are followers in a lead and follow dance. Can you tell me the move a semi-circle to the left leads? There is no mind-reading required. If you want a lady to step back you should lead her to do that. Raising her hand waving it to her right and then back to where you started isn't leading anything apart from a wave
    A semi-circle lead to the left?... probably a "Jump to the left"... perhaps followed by a "step to the right".... let's do the time warp again...

    Yes, you should lead the follower to step back, and from a "cold start" at the beginning of a class there is no tension or compression in the connection: simply pushing back will result in a delay of the follower's elbow moving back, then the rest of them following...
    Moving the hand to the left quarter circle (on the count 7) is used to prep some tension without leading the follower towards you. The last quarter circle is more of a forward coil(started on the "and") applys compression and leads the follower to step back, foot being placed on count 8.

    If you simply move the hand side to side on the 5-6-7(and)8, then you are trying to convert lateral connection into a lead away from you: most often this will result in the follower rotating while stepping back (if they step back rather than just rotating).

    So, yes; just moving the hand in a little semi-circle is simply waving at your partner... but if you actually use the motion to convey a lead, then it's a very good way to initiate a connection and start dancing from a cold start.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    A semi-circle lead to the left?... probably a "Jump to the left"... perhaps followed by a "step to the right".... let's do the time warp again...

    Yes, you should lead the follower to step back, and from a "cold start" at the beginning of a class there is no tension or compression in the connection: simply pushing back will result in a delay of the follower's elbow moving back, then the rest of them following...
    Moving the hand to the left quarter circle (on the count 7) is used to prep some tension without leading the follower towards you. The last quarter circle is more of a forward coil(started on the "and") applys compression and leads the follower to step back, foot being placed on count 8.

    If you simply move the hand side to side on the 5-6-7(and)8, then you are trying to convert lateral connection into a lead away from you: most often this will result in the follower rotating while stepping back (if they step back rather than just rotating).

    So, yes; just moving the hand in a little semi-circle is simply waving at your partner... but if you actually use the motion to convey a lead, then it's a very good way to initiate a connection and start dancing from a cold start.
    This post varies from misleading to totally wrong to misleading. If you want your partner to step back you apply pressure into her hand and she steps back. I've been teaching it this way for ages and never had a lady do anything but step back - that was the misleading bit of Gadget's post.

    Now to the totally wrong. The lady steps back right on beat 1. She could be stepped back left on beat 8. But how would you lead this when you're holding onto her right hand

    And, back to the cold start thing. Cars start cold. All my partners are hot to trot

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    As a follow in MJ, I don't think its something we really have to worry about.

    Our aim should be to come out of a turn to face our partner square on, (unless lead to do something else of course!) if 'he's' changed the direction, then we should change with him.

    Try not to over turn, as 'he' then has to chase us 'round' and this can be quite disruptive to the lead and can make some moves nearly impossible!


    This line of thought has never made me popular, especially since it's easy to read "none of it is my fault - it's all my partner. Waaaaaaa! " if you choose to ignore some of what I'm saying, but here we go anyway....

    It's the mans responsibility to lead clearly and this is something we should all be constantly trying to improve. However..... followers need to realise that there are basic technique issue that they have to be aware of that will make it much easier for the leader to do so.

    Dancing is a partnership, and you get the most out of it by meeting somewhere near the middle. The more experienced member of the partnership should rightly be expected to give a little more but the principle is the same.

    The attitude that it's always the leaders fault if something goes wrong makes no sense to me at all. I can understand the intention of the adage, and agree 100% with it, but I think under any real scrutiny the concept falls over pretty quickly.

    The original post in this thread mentions that people tend to start dancing in a circular fashion as soon as freestyle starts. I think Miguel has it quite right when he says
    1) Most women can't turn and return on the spot.
    2) Most men don't move out of the ladies path.
    If the lady insists on disappearing round the right-hand side of the man there's not a lot you can do.
    It's easy to say that if you want to dance in a slotted style you need to lead the lady in such a fashion. This is absolutely true of the "more experienced" or "better" followers, but I think the reality is a little more difficult when you're talking about the more typical "once-a-fortinight, after a round of drinks with the gilrs for the last year" women who I'd guess are the larger portion of the population. I think many of us on the forum spend so much more of our time dancing with other people just as interested in technique as we are that we can forget there's another world out there.

    If I need to lead like I'm driving a 16 wheeler with no power steering then it just isn't a pleasant experience for me. I'll take the path of least resistance every time in these cases.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    1) Most women can't turn and return on the spot.
    In Modern Jive, according to a decent proportion of experts, the most common footwork pattern for followers is a R-L walking pattern. Here is an example of a good follower dancing a turn with a R-L walking pattern. Check around 1:50. Note that she travels.


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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    when did it get so difficult ????......people dance to have fun ?..or do they ??...this whole thread reads sooo seriously on politcal correctness....i love to dance, love to learn new styles new variations,love to dance with different partners at different levels of experience out of which comes the ability to learn to read your partner whether it be leading or following, if taken in a light hearted way also adds to the enjoyment of dancing ....

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by hinksfield View Post
    when did it get so difficult ????......people dance to have fun ?..or do they ??...this whole thread reads sooo seriously on politcal correctness....i love to dance, love to learn new styles new variations,love to dance with different partners at different levels of experience out of which comes the ability to learn to read your partner whether it be leading or following, if taken in a light hearted way also adds to the enjoyment of dancing ....

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    the more typical "once-a-fortinight, after a round of drinks with the gilrs for the last year" women who I'd guess are the larger portion of the population.
    I've been trying to define that for a while thanks The whole "dancing 6 months, 1 year etc" thing doesn't really work too well in practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    1) Most women can't turn and return on the spot.
    I would be very interested in anyone disagreeing vehemently with this statement

    I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that certain moves require a certain degree of expertise / fluency on the part of the follow to be enjoyable and so will make a dance worse for the "once-a-fortinight, after a round of drinks with the gilrs for the last year" women (Don't supppose you could come up with shorter version? )

    So yeah, adapt the way you lead appropriately, slotted / circular / both according to what you've got rather than what you think you should have.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    1) Most women can't turn and return on the spot.
    2) Most men don't move out of the ladies path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I would be very interested in anyone disagreeing vehemently with this statement
    People seem to cope in the lessons. I mean, there are lots of turns and returns for ladies in lessons, and moves where the man should exit the slot, and, by and large, there doesn't seem to be that much veering off into other couples.

    It's tempting to think this is because the music for lessons is deliberately slower and the slow walkthru pace of much of the lesson means dancers are more able to cope with linear dancing, but I can't say I've noticed much bumping into couples even when the lessons have faster paced music playing. It's not like the lessons turn into an orgy of rotational dancing

    There may be a trap here. And that is in assuming that because people dance in a rotational style, it means there is bad execution (turns/returns, vacating the slot) involved.
    Just because bad execution can lead to rotation, it doesn't follow that rotation means bad execution. It may be deliberate, unconscious or otherwise, for whatever reason. Perhaps people enjoy it! Gasp!


    [Warning: this post was written late at night when I should be tucked up in bed, it may be complete gibberish and may contain nuts]

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Note that she travels.
    I'm assuming this is tongue-in-cheek given the *cough* subtly *cough* different context

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    People seem to cope in the lessons. I mean, there are lots of turns and returns for ladies in lessons, and moves where the man should exit the slot, and, by and large, there doesn't seem to be that much veering off into other couples.
    Importantly though, I think it's fair to point out that there isn't a huge amount of genuine lead and following going on in your typical MJ class.

    My experience at least is that there are relatively few women (that are still attending classes) who will let you lead a move in class anyway. Most are simply copying what the teacher is doing almost regardless of what or where you are. You never get the right connection to genuinely lead when this is happening. Once they no longer have a model to copy they tend to get a little more wild.

    Similarly, I suspect that there aren't that many men who are really getting to grips with leading them in class either for the same or similar reasons. That's something that really comes into it's own on the social floor when nobody's following a script. One of the lovely followers on the forum is probably in a much better position than me to comment here though.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 10th-October-2007 at 06:26 AM.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    People seem to cope in the lessons. I mean, there are lots of turns and returns for ladies in lessons, and moves where the man should exit the slot, and, by and large, there doesn't seem to be that much veering off into other couples.

    [/SIZE]
    I find this is because the lady knows a return is coming and therefore preps herself for one. In freestyle I think that allot of leads do not prep the ladies for a spin and do not know the difference for prepping a lady for a single spin or a double or more.

    Sometimes also the lady does not wait for the lead and spins herself and does not wait for the prep. This will lead to the lady doing a steping turn and not a pivot turn and hence make the lady travel getting her off the lead's line and usually off balance. She often will step forward to balance herself and also because the guy is no longer on her line. This could be another reason for hence another possible reason to a rotational follow.

    A lady should always follow as if dancing liniar and if the guy decides to rotate then she follows with the same principle and as soon as he stops rotating she steps back in the 'slot'

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by hinksfield View Post
    when did it get so difficult ????......people dance to have fun ?..or do they ??...this whole thread reads sooo seriously on politcal correctness....i love to dance, love to learn new styles new variations,love to dance with different partners at different levels of experience out of which comes the ability to learn to read your partner whether it be leading or following, if taken in a light hearted way also adds to the enjoyment of dancing ....
    This is one of those "you can do anything you like so long as you're having fun" posts. And it is totally correct for freestyle. You are free to be wrong and to enjoy doing it - however, having fun does not make it correct in terms of the particular dance you are doing/attempting.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by hinksfield View Post
    when did it get so difficult ????
    Pah, this isn't difficult. Try reading some of the Franck / Amir discussions on connection and musicality if you want difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinksfield View Post
    ......people dance to have fun ?..or do they ??
    I dance to dance.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I'm assuming this is tongue-in-cheek given the *cough* subtly *cough* different context
    I interpreted the original post as:

    Axiom 1). MJ followers are encouraged to step (run) through a turn by some teachers.
    Axiom 2). Stepping through a turn will necessarily make you travel as you change weight between feet (*). Look here's a video that shows a travelling turn -- and look the turn is stepped.

    From axioms 1 and 2, MJ followers -- that are taught be teachers that encourage them to step (run) through a turn -- will necessarily travel, i.e. will not turn and return "on the spot".

    SpinDr

    (*) The only way to step (run) through a turn on the spot would be to place the feet back EXACTLY in their original position -- which is unlikely under normal freestyle conditions.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    The attitude that it's always the leaders fault if something goes wrong makes no sense to me at all. I can understand the intention of the adage, and agree 100% with it, but I think under any real scrutiny the concept falls over pretty quickly.
    There are two rules:

    1) The leader is always right.
    2) The leader is always wrong.

    A corollary is that if the follower does not do what the leader has led and breaks rule #1, then rule #2 no longer applies.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by hinksfield View Post
    when did it get so difficult ????......people dance to have fun ?..or do they ??...this whole thread reads sooo seriously on politcal correctness....i love to dance, love to learn new styles new variations,love to dance with different partners at different levels of experience out of which comes the ability to learn to read your partner whether it be leading or following, if taken in a light hearted way also adds to the enjoyment of dancing ....
    If you want to just dance and have fun, don't read technical threads like this.

    Perhaps this thread should be in the Intermediate Corner due to its more technical nature.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Moves are naturally practised in inear mode in normal "row" classes. It helps floor safety to have them danced that way in freestyle. Other dancers will naturally expect and anticipate final positions, regardless of "should not do". Catering for random orientations needs more concentration and space, and detracts from the dance experience. OTOH concentrating too much on slots detracts from the dance experience too.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Moves are naturally practised in inear mode in normal "row" classes.
    That's just for convenience of teaching - there's no magic rule that moves have to be linear, it's just done to fit as many people in the hall as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    It helps floor safety to have them danced that way in freestyle.
    Hmmm, not convinced on that one myself... My experience of seeing or doing slotted dance forms (WCS, Chacha, LA style salsa) leads me to think that slotted dances require more space than rotational ones.

    Certainly, in a crowded salsa venue, it'd be silly to adopt LA style (not that this stops some people ), Cuban style works much better.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    so now that there has been constructive answers to my original question of slotted or circular, and as I now understand from most of you it is better to dance slotted but be able to adapt to rotational should a certain move require it , your lead has gone a little astray or the follow has gone a little off course my next part of this is .... how much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth and should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??
    Perhaps I have deviated from the original post too much and this should be redirected on another thread

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