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Thread: Continuous Lead?

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    Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    so now that there has been constructive answers to my original question of slotted or circular, and as I now understand from most of you it is better to dance slotted but be able to adapt to rotational should a certain move require it , your lead has gone a little astray or the follow has gone a little off course my next part of this is .... how much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth and should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??
    Perhaps I have deviated from the original post too much and this should be redirected on another thread
    A brilliant precis of what has been said so far

    In answer to your question, your lead should be continuous. You should always be indicating to the lady what she needs to do. It is, after all, a lead and follow dance. If you lead nothing they will follow nothing. Having said that, the lady will sometimes keep following the last thing you led. But that is only in certain circumstances, 99.99% of the time you need to keep leading the move all of the way through from start to finish.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    How much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth and should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure?
    Yeah, this is a little off-topic, but I'll answer here for now.

    The most common aimpoint for modern jive leading is light and smooth, but not necessarilly continuous.
    Light = as little force as you can use whilst still communicating the move.
    Smooth = apply pressure over a short period of time, not as an instaneous flick or shove.
    Not continuous = it's ok for there to be periods where you're not applying pressure.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In answer to your question, your lead should be continuous. You should always be indicating to the lady what she needs to do. It is, after all, a lead and follow dance. If you lead nothing they will follow nothing. Having said that, the lady will sometimes keep following the last thing you led. But that is only in certain circumstances, 99.99% of the time you need to keep leading the move all of the way through from start to finish.
    Just to clarify the above, you shouldn't need to lead continuously. You should maintain connection continuously. The lead should only occur when (or just before if using pre-leads) you want your partner to do something ( or stop doing something).

    A continuous lead would be overkill and frustrate as many good followers as it would help.

    Aim for constant connection and 'just enough' lead for clarity, smoothness and comfort.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    how much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth and should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??
    To add to what Martin just posted, try and separate your connection to your partner (typically gentle pressure inside the hand) which should always be present, from the lead (a light pull or push for example). That way, your partner always feels your presence (reassuringly) via the connection, but doesn't feel dragged everywhere.
    Leading your partner forward briefly should suffice if your body position / language doesn't imply a stop of some kind (e.g. you're in the way!).
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    If this post is longer than you like to read either
    1. pretend it is lots of small posts stuck together
    2. skip to the bold bit at the end

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    how much pressure should I apply on leading the follow back or forth
    In general in dance we try to use as little energy as possible, not just for leading but in general. Do not confuse this to mean you should always lead everything with a very light touch! Some movements, speeds and moods require a heavier touch. But you should still not use more energy than is needed.

    So the short, yet misleading answer is, 'as little as possible.'

    Take note, what is possible with one partner and in one move may not be true for the next. In theory the follower should match your pressure, but of course in the real world every follower needs and likes different amounts of pressure.


    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    should it be just the one bit of pressure or continuous...ie. to lead the follow towards me should I just give just one slight pull and the follow steps forward until I block, turn etc or should it be a continuous/pressure??
    When leading a linear movement, (or when dancing in a slot,) you can use just 'an initial bit of pressure.'
    The exception to this is when you want to maintain a slight pull away/towards each other throughout the movement, and some people like doing this all the time.

    When leading circular movements you would need continuous pressure. This is because circular movements are in a sense continuously being readjusted. Many people observe that modern jive has continuous pressure as opposed to wcs. This is not arbitrary convention in my opinion. It is because wcs is slotted and most people dance MJ circular style. If you dance modern jive in a slot you don't need continuous pressure (see above about using as little energy as possible.) If you dance swing in a circular style then you will often need continious pressure.

    Some people like to maintain continuous pressure all the time even in linear movements. If that is what they enjoy I can't say it is wrong, but from a technical point of view it is limited, more tiring, and more likely to cause injury.


    The short and seemingly unhelpful answer to any of these kind of 'should I do this or that' questions is that there is almost always a time and a place for almost any option you can imagine, as long as it involves two consenting adults. The difficulty is figuring out which option is right for when, and how the hell do I find someone who will consent to it? (The option I am thinking of involves treacle, varying degrees of pressure, and dedicated practise.)
    Last edited by Amir; 11th-October-2007 at 01:01 AM. Reason: I read what I wrote and I didn't understand it. I realized I had inadvertently been quoting random passages from the Apocryp

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Just to clarify the above, you shouldn't need to lead continuously. You should maintain connection continuously. The lead should only occur when (or just before if using pre-leads) you want your partner to do something ( or stop doing something).

    A continuous lead would be overkill and frustrate as many good followers as it would help.

    Aim for constant connection and 'just enough' lead for clarity, smoothness and comfort.
    Just to clarify the above, and (almost) to agree with Franck , you need to communicate your connection continuously. There is no time when you are communicating nothing. The difference between "maintaining connection continously" and a "continuous lead" is semantics. As far as I am concerned, "maintaining connection" and "continously leading" mean the same thing

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    (The option I am thinking of involves treacle, varying degrees of pressure, and dedicated practise.)[/B][/I]
    Of course, in this dish, you could replace treacle with golden syrup and still have a lovely pudding.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The difference between "maintaining connection continously" and a "continuous lead" is semantics. As far as I am concerned, "maintaining connection" and "continously leading" mean the same thing
    I must say I'm baffled by this! The difference between connection and leading is not just huge, but fundamental. Andy, I would strongly recommend that you book a private lesson with DavidB so that you can appreciate the difference.

    I finally understand why we seem to disagree so often in technical discussions.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Some people like to maintain continuous pressure all the time even in linear movements. If that is what they enjoy I can't say it is wrong, but from a technical point of view it is limited, more tiring, and more likely to cause injury.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "limited". Could you give an example?

    I'm struggling to see "tiring". I need to maintain some activity in my muscles to keep my frame. It doesn't feel like extra work to use those muscles to apply a little pressure at the same time. Plus, I've been maintaining continuous pressure with my bum on this chair for the last hour or so, and I'm not tired yet.
    I'm also struggling to see the risk of injury. It seems to me that the risks come from unexpected sudden changes in pressure. Light continuous pressure seems very safe.

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "limited". Could you give an example?
    Basically anytime you are always doing something it means you or not allowing the possibility of not doing it. Precise physical examples take too long to describe in writing. But there is a basic kinesthetic joy in pushing or pulling against someone which is diminished if it is either always there, or always at the same level.


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I'm struggling to see "tiring". I need to maintain some activity in my muscles to keep my frame. .
    I think you are thinking of what Frank here has called 'connection'. I am talking about when people are continuously pulling on each other, since the original question was about the pressure required to get a follower to walk. In my opinion if you've led a lady to walk and you are neither changing direction or speed, then there is no need for furthur pushing or pulling. Since there is no need to expend more energy, even using a little would be more tiring than using none. Anyway I am mainly thinking of those followers who require considerable and consistent push/pull. I find that tiring.


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Light continuous pressure seems very safe.
    Typing or poor posture can lead to chronic injuries, like RSI / back pain etc. Those are the kind of injuries I'm talking about, not sudden pulled muscles or broken legs. Continuous unnecessary pressure is more likely to lead to these kinds of pains, unless you know how to make it safe. In which case it is only limiting and tiring.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I must say I'm baffled by this! The difference between connection and leading is not just huge, but fundamental. Andy, I would strongly recommend that you book a private lesson with DavidB so that you can appreciate the difference.

    I finally understand why we seem to disagree so often in technical discussions.
    I am afraid it's still semantics to me. If you are maintaining a connection you are leading. You may not be leading anything - in that case you are leading nothing. But you are maintaining connection and leading nothing. However, it's still a lead. It's a Zen thing...

    .. maybe it doesn't translate well into French

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I am afraid it's still semantics to me.
    Well it is just semantics, but unless we are clear about what words mean when we use them, it makes it pointless to discuss anything! I think for my purposes at least it makes sense to distinguish between:

    leading - the pressure which you introduce to indicate or stop a movement and
    connection - the pressure which makes you aware of your partner even when not leading or influencing a movement.

    If you are touching then some connection is inevitable. I mean, if you can feel someone else's skin on yours there must be some pressure there. So the connection continuum goes from the zero of letting go, all the way up to pushing against each other as hard as possible without moving.

    So how much connection to have? Well, its up to personal preference, but many people teach to use the weight of the followers arm - just rest that into your partners hand, and what ever pressure gravity introduces is a good benchmark for comfortable connection. As MartinHarpers bum proved, this is not tiring for the follower at all. But it can be for a lazy leader like me, who has to hold the arm up, and some people find even this too much. I prefer the result I get when I suggest to hold the arm up, but let just the weight of the forearm or even just the hand drop. Whether or not this is what is actually happening when it feels right I don't know, but it is an interesting thought experiment to reach a relaxed connection.

    But as with most things I don’t believe there is one answer. I prefer followers who can match the strength of connection from just skin caress contact all the way up to the equivalent of quite a firm and friendly hug. And to vary this continuously throughout the dance.

    So to go back to the original questions, this is my opinion:

    the lead should be as light as possible to get the job done (which depends on the move and the partner)
    the connection should be as firm as required to feel good to both partners at that moment in the dance.
    the lead should only be present when leading a new movement. In circular moves you are continuously leading a change of direction so there will be a continuous lead.
    The connection will be continuous unless you let go.

    PS I haven’t used this distinction between ‘lead’ and ‘connection’ on any other post or thread, just here and now to make it easier to discuss this subject…

    PPS I can't be sure I have using the terminology in the same way that Franck or DavidB use it so don't take what I have said to represent what they think without checking!
    Last edited by Amir; 11th-October-2007 at 03:31 AM. Reason: to delete the best bit that everyone would have loved

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Whilst I understand the distinction between lead and connection (my definition: the lead is "this is the steps I want to do", the connection is how you communicate with your partner),
    I'm have a question about continuouse leading.

    If you're not leading continuously, then what's the basic lead "unit"? Each MJ move? Each step in a MJ move? Or even, each component of each step in a MJ move?

    The reason I ask is that, in my dancing, I've been breaking down moves more and more over time, into smaller components rather than a predefined sequence. So, for example, 2-3 years ago I was porting some salsa moves into MJ, based around cross-body leads. But after a while, I started breaking down those moves into components - so that now I'm doing only the atomic parts of those moves and deciding what additional steps to take at the time, based on factors such as the music and the space available.

    But, I think this level of additional interpretation (for want of a better word) requires more of a continuous lead - in that the closer you get to leading individual steps, the more individual leads you'll need for each step. And if you're going to lead (and vary) each component of each step, you'll need even more individual leads, won't you?

    So, my question is, doesn't this approach imply something close to a "continuous lead"? Because from what I understand of it, AT seems to have, at least potentially a (near-)continuous lead as well as a continuouse connection?

    Don't get me wrong, I completely accept that a WCS-style of dance does not use continuous lead - from what I understand, the leader kicks it off then waits for the follower to finish - but I dunno if those restrictions apply to some styles of MJ, or to dances like AT.

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    Re: Slotted or Circular???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As far as I am concerned, "maintaining connection" and "continously leading" mean the same thing
    You could be "continuously following", you know...

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In answer to your question, your lead should be continuous.
    If you also did some breakaway dancing or parallel slides with no hand holds, maybe a bit of funk next to your partner, would you have a contiguous lead?

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    If you also did some breakaway dancing or parallel slides with no hand holds, maybe a bit of funk next to your partner, would you have a contiguous lead?
    Martin has introduced a new word Contiguous, I think, means adjacent.

    That aside, I think there is still a lead and follow when you dance apart. You're still dancing as a partnership - or at least trying to. However, I think the lead is a mix of visual lead, choreography and whatever you can pick out from the music.

    In this thread we've been attempting to answer a question about leading a lady through a move. The question asked if you gave a bit of a lead and left the lady to do the rest of if you led her all the way through the move. I said you led her through the move and Franck didn't like the way I said it.

    I think Franck and I actually do the same things, however, we speak a different language which occasionally causes misunderstandings. I quite enjoy those misundertandings because they are fairly meaningless and we agree on most matters - except Franck's insistence on teaching the semi-circle to the left

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    If there are parts of a particular dance means that you can predict, then you don't *need* to lead continuously, since the follower's movement will behave predictably.

    Most MJ moves aren't predictable in terms of follower movement -- so you will need to lead most of them continuously

    SpinDr

    P.S. There's a difference between leading "keep moving predictably -- I don't want to change your movement (at present)" and leading "nothing", i.e. no lead -- and of course leading "remain on the spot".

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Martin has introduced a new word Contiguous, I think, means adjacent.

    That aside, I think there is still a lead and follow when you dance apart. You're still dancing as a partnership - or at least trying to. However, I think the lead is a mix of visual lead, choreography and whatever you can pick out from the music.

    In this thread we've been attempting to answer a question about leading a lady through a move. The question asked if you gave a bit of a lead and left the lady to do the rest of if you led her all the way through the move. I said you led her through the move and Franck didn't like the way I said it.

    I think Franck and I actually do the same things, however, we speak a different language which occasionally causes misunderstandings. I quite enjoy those misundertandings because they are fairly meaningless and we agree on most matters - except Franck's insistence on teaching the semi-circle to the left
    Well spotted Andy

    just being cheeky with semantics... - um, you guys started it

    I often lead a lady through some of the move, and leave room for her to then improvise, as I am sure both you and Franck do, it just comes down to what we call it. If she does not use this, I then take back the lead with no embarisment either way, coz it is all down to timing and often you can pick up real quick that she is not using the space, or does not know how to.

    Contiguous, is actually used a lot in ballroom and Latin, but I do not want to go off into other dance forms, the thing is I often use it in MJ - mostly visual in MJ freestyle... some of the advanced dancers here will initiate, and sometimes I initiate, no contact, but still a partner dance... can be initiated with contact, then break the physical contact but still have the connection, together, but without hand contact.

    Biggest tip is to look to the centre of the chest, that is the core, where the body starts to move from...

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Biggest tip is to look to the centre of the chest, that is the core, where the body starts to move from...
    I have noticed Martin looking at the centre of the chest. I noticed he was doing it from the bar...

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    Re: Continuous Lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have noticed Martin looking at the centre of the chest. I noticed he was doing it from the bar...
    Well do not wear such low cut dresses then Andy and I will not look!!

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