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Thread: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

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    Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Yes I wish people stop whinging about the imbalance as it clearly is now a 'Choice'. Go to Camber (women cant book for Southport in Feb already) or don't go to a weekender

    Id hate to see that choice restricted for the ladies

    ps it was never more then 3/4 deep
    I've been thinking about this subject a lot recently: I've had a few nights where I've had to do a lesson with more than twice as many women as men I think it's football matches or rugby as numbers have evened up a bit later.

    The gender balance at weekenders is just a multiplication of what happens at the classes. Just about every class you attend has women over - and those women seem to complain to everybody that there's not enough men.

    I regularly get women complaining to me that there aren't enough men for them to dance with - as if I'm somehow to blame And, I get them complaining that there aren't enough good men for them - some women even complain to me that there aren't enough eligible men!

    What am I expected to do about it? I used to feel guilty and apologise to these ladies. Now I've realised that it's not my fault - and I'm a bit annoyed From the data I have collated, the most common reason a guy hears about and comes along to dancing is because a woman brought him along. If I advertise I get far more women responding than men, the same goes for posters and leaflet drops - it's even worse for busking!

    Now, when there's an imbalance, I tell the women that the solution is in their hands. They are women after all, they were designed by nature to be attractive to men - so go out and attract!

    What do they expect me to do? Go out and drag men in off the street for them to dance with? Why should I try when there's purpose built man attractors who are so much better suited to the job

    Of course, the ladies could just learn to accept the current situation

    I feel so much better now
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 8th-October-2007 at 11:14 AM.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've been thinking about this subject a lot recently: I've had a few nights where I've had to do a lesson with more than twice as many women as men I think it's football matches or rugby as numbers have evened up a bit later.

    The gender balance at weekenders is just a multiplication of what happens at the classes. Just about every class you attend has women over - and those women seem to complain to everybody that there's not enough men.

    I regularly get women complaining to me that there aren't enough men for them to dance with. And, I get them complaining that there aren't enough good men for them - some women even complain to me that there aren't enough eligible men!

    What am I expected to do about it? I used to feel guilty and apologise to these ladies. Now I've realised that it's not my fault - and I'm a bit annoyed From the data I have collated, the most common reason a guy hears about and comes along to dancing is because a woman brought him along. If I advertise I get far more women responding than men, the same goes for posters and leaflet drops - it's even worse for busking!

    Now, when there's an imbalance, I tell the women that the solution is in their hands. They are women after all, they were designed by nature to be attractive to men - so go out and attract!

    What do they expect me to do? Go out and drag men in off the street for them to dance with? Why should I try when there's purpose built man attractors who are so much better suited to the job

    Of course, the ladies could just learn to accept the current situation

    I feel so much better now




    This one could explode!


    Go Cruella,Zebra and co: let it all go...

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Now I've had my rant I'd like to point out that it's not all women who complain. Some of them are very kind and patient about this issue. Some of them do bring new men - some of them can even do without us altogether as they learn to lead

    But SOME of then tut and moan and raise their eyes to the ceiling as I say "move round seventeen happy, smiling ladies, please".

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Now I've had my rant I'd like to point out that it's not all women who complain. Some of them are very kind and patient about this issue. Some of them do bring new men - some of them can even do without us altogether as they learn to lead

    But SOME of then tut and moan and raise their eyes to the ceiling as I say "move round seventeen happy, smiling ladies, please".
    Its goes around have seen a number of events recently with more men

    My point has always been choice

    Of course it would be nice if events were even and women stayed up after 3am but thats not likely (re weekenders)

    So you have choice, id hate to see that choice taken away

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What do they expect me to do? Go out and drag men in off the street for them to dance with? Why should I try when there's purpose built man attractors who are so much better suited to the job
    Well, there are lots of things you as the organiser could do, in theory:

    A couple of obvious examples:
    • You could let all men in free, or charge unaccomanied women extra, or both.
    • You could gender-balance all your events, classes included, refusing entry to extra women.

    So it's not a question of what you can do, it's a question of what you can do whilst still making money / running a viable business.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    This is a tough one with no easy solution and must be frustrating for the business owner as well as the punters.

    I do get quite frustrated when I go to a class and pay for a lesson, but then have to stand out of half of the class due to the gender imbalance.

    Last week there was 18 ladies over in the rotation in the Intermediate class with 24 couples on the floor. This obviously resulted in me getting next to nothing out of the class, I was standing out every second move and the moves I wasnt standing out I had to try very hard to "keep up"

    When I pay for a lesson I of course expect to get it and not half a lesson.

    I understand that as MJ lessons is most often a "turn up on the night" there will always be some degree of gender imbalance but I would also like to see the manager of the night excert some sort of control.
    Either letting people know when they get in that there is a large gender imbalance so they have an option of just going for the freestyle, or giving the advanced people a discount to "sit out" the lesson.

    And yes and sorry we have to disagree on this Andy. But the person that runs the business have a responsibility towards their customers to adress this gender imblance. If you run a business and there is a flaw somewhere which means a large procentage of your customers often gets a lesser service then yes that should be addressed

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Connie View Post
    But the person that runs the business have a responsibility towards their customers to adress this gender imblance. If you run a business and there is a flaw somewhere which means a large procentage of your customers often gets a lesser service then yes that should be addressed
    Indeed. I expect all jive classes will now enforce the rule "couples only". Seems fair, and its the only solution that would work.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Indeed. I expect all jive classes will now enforce the rule "couples only". Seems fair, and its the only solution that would work.
    Maybe (as DJ says) there should be gender balancing at the door. Accompanied ladies get straight in. Unaccompanied ladies have to wait at the door for an unaccompanied man.

    That way, any unaccompanied ladies don't have to pay for a lesson that they don't partake in.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Connie View Post
    letting people know when they get in that there is a large gender imbalance so they have an option of just going for the freestyle
    I read this and thought it was a good idea - but I know that if I turned up and this was said to me I'd probably just leave and go home. Turning people away is never good for business.

    I guess another thing that could be done is to encourage women to learn to lead? It might not be an ideal situation, but I know that if there are lots of women over (or even if there aren't ) I like to dance with my female friends, and it means that more women are dancing and fewer are sitting around acutely feeling the lack of men. It might not be everyone's cup of tea but it might help.
    Similarly, maybe organising some double trouble workshops/classes might ease the burden.
    Or employ Fletch to teach a bop-on-your-own workshop .

    The point is the extra ladies need to be kept dancing and feeling happy. If they end up sitting out and pining for a partner they won't have fun and, most likely, they won't come back.
    There must be plenty of things dance venue organisers can do/think of to keep numerous women entertained whilst they are waiting for a dance...?

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    That way, any unaccompanied ladies don't have to pay for a lesson that they don't partake in.
    Instead they get to wait around a door. Doesn't seem the most welcoming atmosphere. I guess the "turn up on the night" policy very much comes with the issue that you have no way to know the numbers that are going to turn up on a given night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connie
    And yes and sorry we have to disagree on this Andy. But the person that runs the business have a responsibility towards their customers to address this gender imbalance.
    Get some smelly, short wearing, men in to get rid of some of the women?

    Convince more women to lead? This seems to actually put part of the responsibility into the customers hands. Andy makes some great points that trying to promote an event just seems to attract more women, what do you suggest he can do to further attempt to address the imbalance?

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    This is such a tricky one as I do feel Andy's pain as I've recently started teaching - I feel horribly guilty when I ask for 10 ladies round please .. like I can do anything (within reason) to attract more men to my classes (I am the teacher not venue manager I hasten to add).

    I am also acutely aware that there is one regular lady at my class who hates dancing with other women.

    At the same time, the female taxis have been asked not to dance as leads. Which is really frustrating.

    As a single person who would struggle to find an unattached fella to come along as a partner ... I would be really annoyed if attached women were allowed to come in and I wasn't ... that to me would be discrimination.

    So, in venues where there is a large excess of women I would suggest 4 things:

    1. Not stopping women who want to lead - but asking them to do this sensitively (as some women don't like it). Encouraging staff to lead if there is an excess.
    2. Get more male taxi dancers
    3. Distribute excess women throughout the class so you only have to say 1 lady round - and the swapping of partners means less time wasted (and therefore sat out) while the ladies walk around!
    4. Offer incentives for men to give dancing a go - first 5 lessons half price or something.


    SuzyQ

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkles View Post
    The point is the extra ladies need to be kept dancing and feeling happy. If they end up sitting out and pining for a partner they won't have fun and, most likely, they won't come back.
    There must be plenty of things dance venue organisers can do/think of to keep numerous women entertained whilst they are waiting for a dance...?
    This has been my approach. I'm pretty much accepting that there will always be ladies over. At dances I've been putting on nibbles and showing large screen videos of Patrick Swayze with his shirt off. At the last dance I ran I had to teach a double trouble lesson. Which was a laugh, especially as we had one man and one woman over - I had to get the guys to move round one way and the ladies to move around the other way At classes I've been encouraging ladies to learn to lead.

    In my experience, we get no extra guys if we do any kind of price promotion to get new guys. If we have a huge difference I always offer free entry to anybody who brings a new guy the next week - sometimes we get one or two new guys, but my impression is that they were probably going to be there anyway. One offer I did make for new dancers was particularly successful - I offered a large bar of Cadburys or Galaxy to anybody who brought a new person. Maybe I should try that for new guys.

    I suppose my rant is about the ladies who moan about there not being enough men. Why do they do that when they can see that just about every organiser is doing everything they can to encourage men?

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Andy makes some great points that trying to promote an event just seems to attract more women, what do you suggest he can do to further attempt to address the imbalance?
    But, busking on a Saturday afternoon in a 'shopping centre' probably isn't the best place to target 'men'

    What you need is a bunch of really 'fun and outgoing' girls and a bunch of not so good looking guys *to get down to the pubs at half time during a foot ball match. (*to show these so called 'real men' what they're missing out on and so as not to intimidate them! )

    Or do a busk at half time, on an actual football pitch of the local rugby/football/cricket club and then get all the girls to go round the stands handing the leaflets to the guys personally!
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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    All great ideas SuzyQ
    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ View Post
    4. Offer incentives for men to give dancing a go - first 5 lessons half price or something.


    SuzyQ
    Except the one above. I've really found that price incentives have a limited success. We've even tried offering free classes - that's a great success at getting skinflints through the door who stop coming as soon as the have to start paying. IMHO if it's worth doing it's worth paying for. Also, you do value something you've paid for more than something you've received for free.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger View Post
    This one could explode!


    Go Cruella,Zebra and co: let it all go...
    With regard to weekenders - I'm over it

    There are now so many genuinely gender balanced weekenders that it's just not a problem anymore. I don't know how many weekenders are on offer each year but there are certainly more gender balanced weekenders available than I could possibly manage to go on....

    If I choose my 5 favourites in order of preference: SP June, SP Sept, SP Feb, Storm, Blaze, Breeze....etc

    There would be another 5 weekenders at least, before I reached the point of having to choose one that wasn't gender balanced. For me the gender balance was a big problem a couple of years ago when we had less choice.

    These days it wouldn't bother me at all if a couple of weekenders a year weren't balanced, as it doesn't affect me. In fact I like it. If I'm missing out on one, I like to imagine how awful it would have been with all those layers of women round the edge of the floor.


    Re: Gender balancing Freestyles and club nights

    I'm definitely not over it

    On club nights this seems to go in waves, out of control and unpredictable, 27 spare women one week and 5 the next . Sometimes it seems self limiting, some of the 27 spare women will be so disappointed with their night they don't turn up the next week when there are just 5 spare women...who have such a good night they tell their friends..... and there are 25 spare women the next week! I don't know I'm only guessing.

    I can't think of an easy solution, but I do feel one area could be improved.

    Busking
    - Why oh why shopping centres? There seems to be 10 women for every man in those places . Why not busk at sports events, car rallies, work places, fitness clubs, or other male dominated places? We know some of our our best male dancers come from a martial arts, clubbing, figure skating, and line dancing backgrounds - so why not target them? It's a question of finding young fit good looking men who don't already have an all consuming hobby.

    Sorry was I politically incorrect just then?

    ZW

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    I think you're going along the right lines Andy in asking the ladies to attract more gents.
    It's the nice ladies that attract me to Ceroc funnily enough

    How about a scheme where the lady would get free entry for the evening for bringing a new male beginner along?

    That might work well and be easy to administrate.

    At least that would give the fustrated ladies something to try rather than ranting at you all the time, they could have a rant at thier work colleges and other lazy male friends.

    I'm sure deep down all the ladies appreciate your efforts so try not to take it to heart too much and keep up the good work.

    Cheers, DD.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman View Post
    ... finding young fit good looking men who don't already have an all consuming hobby.

    Sorry was I politically incorrect just then?

    ZW
    No! You stopped short of mentioning that they needed to be suntanned

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman View Post


    On club nights this seems to go in waves, out of control and unpredictable, 27 spare women one week and 5 the next . Sometimes it seems self limiting, some of the 27 spare women will be so disappointed with their night they don't turn up the next week when there are just 5 spare women...who have such a good night they tell their friends..... and there are 25 spare women the next week! I don't know I'm only guessing.

    Seen this happen in Fulham ie one week 20 women over the next 3 or more men

    The football rugby or what ever has if anything a postive affect re more men

    I once went to Windsor when England were playing and more men turned up

    However have to say in last 3yrs I rarely see more the 5/6 ladies over (inc beginners )

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman View Post
    With regard to weekenders - I'm over it ..stuff.
    See Tiger we are such a close clique it only needs one of us to post all of our thoughts.

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    Re: Gender Balancing Rant!!!

    I agree with Andy (Arghhhh ), I've never seen a financial incentive that you could say works in anything other than the very short term.

    All the ideas that have been thrown around over time, making it more of a 'dating' experience, turning it into AerobaJive (or whatever) and emphasizing 'fitness'. All of them without fail tend to lean towards changing the basic atmosphere of the nights.

    This is a cultural thing. Basically it's the fault of the education ministers for not making Modern Jive a compulsory class at schools. I blame New Labour


    As an aside...
    Interesting to note your nights lose men on football nights. Down here, I think the ladies all presume the men will stay in and watch football, so they don't come. Almost without fail, on football nights we are down on the number of ladies. Not kidding!

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