"Strong Lead"

[robd]

Disagree, unless I know you of old and have seen you dance many times, how will I know that this is your move of choice?

I started writing in my original post about this caveat - that a lot of times dancing MJ socially we may have no idea of a partner's style preferences - and then deleted it in order to see if other people would make that observation. In the case of the teacher in question - Paul Warden - it's unlikely that many of the people who ask him to dance will not be aware of his preferences but I admit that doesn't reflect the wider MJ social scene.

• You've got to be a real Move Fascist (and this is me saying it) to impose a move on someone who's clearly expressed a dislike of it, just because you can. And they may have good reasons for their dislike (e.g. bad back and drops).

Ahem, Straitjacket anyone

Actually, anyone who knows me would know I don't push people through moves they're uncomfortable with - if anything, my dancing is too safe leading to monotony and predictability The teacher in question doesn't AFAIK force people through those moves either. I was just thinking in terms of the original discussion and if I (say) am acknowledged as a generally slotted dancer wouldn't it be the responsibility of a lady that asked me to dance to try and match that slotted style? Granted this assumes that their style of dance (circular or slotted) is a voluntary choice and not a result of their technical limitations.

You callin' me a hotshot just because ... [I described a recent encounter as] .... a reasonably satisfactory dance.

Yes, probably

[Astro]

I started writing in my original post about this caveat - that a lot of times dancing MJ socially we may have no idea of a partner's style preferences - and then deleted it in order to see if other people would make that observation. In the case of the teacher in question - Paul Warden - it's unlikely that many of the people who ask him to dance will not be aware of his preferences but I admit that doesn't reflect the wider MJ social scene.

Agreed, I hadn't noticed DJ was a slotted dancer.

Actually, anyone who knows me would know I don't push people through moves they're uncomfortable with - if anything, my dancing is too safe leading to monotony and predictability The teacher in question doesn't AFAIK force people through those moves either. I was just thinking in terms of the original discussion and if I (say) am acknowledged as a generally slotted dancer wouldn't it be the responsibility of a lady that asked me to dance to try and match that slotted style? Granted this assumes that their style of dance (circular or slotted) is a voluntary choice and not a result of their technical limitations.

Paul F doesn't give me a choice, I just have to dance slotted, likewise Chef and RK, plus others I can't remember off hand.

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

Slotted is the father, circular the son?

[David Bailey]

Ahem, Straitjacket anyone

Do what I say, not what I do

Actually, the SJ is a good example. I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that when I started doing this move (8+ years ago), my lead was too rough and forceful.

However, now I can lead it on anyone, assuming my ickle arms can reach, without (I hope) causing any problems. Again proving that any move is leadable without discomfort, if well-led.

Although that may not be a consolation to the dozens of women I've crippled during my learning process, but what the hell, you can't make an omelette etc.

Agreed, I hadn't noticed DJ was a slotted dancer.

I don't think I am - with the caveat that no-one ever really knows what they dance like of course.

I like slotted. I like circular. It's all good.

[Chef]

Paul F doesn't give me a choice, I just have to dance slotted, likewise Chef and RK, plus others I can't remember off hand.

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

Slotted is the father, circular the son?

This is not a personal dig at Astro. The quote from her post above is used to put my post in context. If you hate long posts just skip to the next one.

I don't think that I FORCE anyone to dance slotted. I do try to lead my follwers slotted and try to return my followers to the origional slot at the end of a move, if it is still available at that time, or in the direction of available space which could then become the new slot, as I have a hope that the space will continue to remain available between starting the lead of a a move and completing it. I do hope that my partners will dance in a slotted fashion because I am giving a clear and precise invitational lead. Most the time my followers accept that invitation and both seem happy.

I started dancing slotted because I went to a lot of Nigel and Ninas MJ lessons and that was, and still is, the way they taught. WCS was a much later and more formal addition and many things in WCS will only work because of the slotted nature and both partners understanding and acceptance of it.

When I lead a partner towards me at the start of a move I lead her towards my position and I vacate the place that I have lead her towards. Very often I find that follows ignore my lead and automatically step to my right hand side and very often quite a bit past my position. As soon as they do that they have imposed a few things.

The rest of the move must start with the woman on my right hand side. My option to lead a move past my left hand side has been completely negated. This is quite a pity because I know quite a few moves both from MJ and ones from WCS that have been adapted to MJ as well as quite a few ways of hitting breaks in nice-ish poses.

Most of the drops I know have the woman approaching me along the left hand side of my body into the drop and I try to make them fit the music. Once the follower has ignored my lead and gone to my right hand side I can't lead the drop and have to come up with something to fit the accent point in the music which will, hopefully, not look too feeble. Getting my follower to dance slotted retains my option to lead moves on either side, my follower automatically stepping to my right hand side removes a wide range of my options. Most followers are trained to step to the right hand side of the lead automatically because all of the beginner moves and most of the intermediate moves go towards that side. So if the followers are lead into a move by an intermediate there is about a 97% chance it will be to the lead RHS. The other factor is that intermediate leaders make absolutely no space allowance for their approaching follower and remain at their starting position meaning the follower must take avoiding action. I feel that the terms beginner, intermediate, etc is not defined by length of time served but by actions, skills and behaviours, just like getting promoted at work. When you stop making the mistakes that beginners do then you are no longer a beginner. Not accomodating your followers space requirements and ignoring a linear lead to step automatically to your leaders right hand side are behaviours that I feel separate intermediates from those that are no longer intermediates.

If we are no longer aligned on the origonal slot there may not be space to naturally exit the move and I will have to bend the move to find space to exit the move into. While I am trying to work this out I am not paying as much attention to the music or the lead and both the musicality of the dance I can give and the smoothness of the lead I give may suffer while I try to work out space management.


I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. I have been informed in the past on this forum that this is only done for convenience and safety of having a large number of dancers together in a hall and it would be bad if they all kept bumping into each other in lessons. I have not yet been told why these requirements disappear once the freestyle starts with the same number of people in the same hall.

I therefore don't believe that circular is the way that Ceroc teaches. However I can only base that belief on never having seen Ceroc being taught in random orientations for start and end of moves in the past 8 years.

I also don't understand why a follower feels that if they are left to their own devices they will go in a circle around the leader. If I want the follower to orbit around me then I will provide a cirular lead. If I want them to move in a straight line I will lead them in a straight line. Any time that I want a follower to be redirected I need to provide a lead for it otherwise my follower has been put in the position of guessing.


How it looks to me is that MJ is taught as a linear dance, in as much as the start and end positions of moves are known and taught but that it has to deviate from that on a social dance floor because many dancers on social dance floors can't, or choose not to perform the moves in that way because of changing floor space availablity.

I really feel that I am going to regret trying to post anything non humorous on this forum.

[MartinHarper]

I don't think I am - with the caveat that no-one ever really knows what they dance like of course.

I like slotted. I like circular. It's all good.

Eh, doesn't look slotted to me.

[TA Guy]

I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. I have been informed in the past on this forum that this is only done for convenience and safety of having a large number of dancers together in a hall and it would be bad if they all kept bumping into each other in lessons. I have not yet been told why these requirements disappear once the freestyle starts with the same number of people in the same hall.

Maybe I can help. This is not the only reason for slotted lessons, but it's part of the organisational aspect of it. I understand that as many people needed to be 'slotted' into as little space as possible to allow as many as possible to get at least a reasonable view of the teacher. Once everybody spreads out in the big wide hall, this no longer applies so those restrictions disappear.
Of course, back in the day, there were no large video screens to help

[ducasi]

[...] long post [...]

I started dancing slotted because I went to a lot of Nigel and Ninas MJ lessons and that was, and still is, the way they taught. [...]

[...]

I have only ever seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion. [...]

[...]

Just want to say a big to pretty much everything Chef has written here.

The obvious exceptions would be that I haven't been dancing 8 years, and I really couldn't place where I gained my slotted style from.

One thing that I wonder though... If you've only seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion, why did it take going to N&N's lessons to turn you into a slotted dancer? Just curious...

[Chef]

One thing that I wonder though... If you've only seen MJ taught in a slotted fashion, why did it take going to N&N's lessons to turn you into a slotted dancer? Just curious...

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.

All you had to do was lead the follower in a line and then get out of her way and the choice of which way you did so was up to you. You could move one way and she moves past you on your right or move the other way and she passes you on the left, and eithe way was equally easy provided you gave a linear lead and your follower followed it.

Every leader gets bored with the stuff that they do, especially because it never comes as a complete surprise to themselves, and leaders are always looking for something new and tricky to master just to keep their feeling of development and progress going. To realise that I had a whole complete side of my body to lead moves down made me feel suddenly very stupid for not having thought of it before.

[killingtime]

The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.

Totally agree. As a beginner if I messed up I'd probably stop and give that deer in headlights look before saying "sorry" and try and start another move. Since I know a lot more permutations of moves (including breaking them down so you can start half way through) means I can just go on like I meant that to happen all along.

I was quite proud of myself tonight as I invited a lady I knew to be a dedicated metranomic hand bouncer to a dance. I worked on isolating my lead from her hand bounce and had a reasonably satisfactory dance.

I prefer if my partner tells me the dance was adequate, passable or acceptable rather than reasonably satisfactory. Just an FYI.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.

Its only natural that where most moves have the follower traveling to the right hand side of the leader - people are going to circle clockwise. If a lead is quite a "puller" it will be worse. If a follower is an "anticipator" it will be worse. I'm pretty sure the one time i danced with a really severe circler it was because she'd previously had a dance with a major puller and due to my much lighter lead always came into the right of me on an assumption. I felt like a vulture Even trying my best to lead to the left didn't work as her first step was always to her left no matter what...I'm of the opinion if you've got to be "too forceful" its not worth it, so physically dragging is out of the question...just go with it Also, with this particular "circle dance" in mind - it was a very fast bounce-bounce "pop" track - what can you do to that ?

[TA Guy]

Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?
I'm just a bog standard MJ dancer having been 'brought up' dancing at many venues and like all in that position, I've danced with many slotted follows, and many rotational follows. I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.

I mean, I get what your saying, if a lead is demanding slotted dancing (and therefore positioning accordingly) and a follow is demanding rotational dancing (and therefore positioning accordingly), left side moves are going to be a touch tricky to say the least.

The question becomes, is it right for the lead to insist on a slotted style? Is it right for the follower to insist on a rotational style? Or is the dance a partnership where some kind of solution is worked out? Even if in the worse case, the participants decide never to dance together again

The sheer fact of the matter is that there are many rotational dancers out there, and it is a perfectly acceptable style of the dance. It is neither better nor worse than slotted dancing, and while every dancer probably has at least a vague preference, no one can say they are actually dancing the right way compared to the others. Therefore, in my mind, the best dancers accomodate all styles, the same as the best leads try to accomodate all follows (and vice versa of course).


This just came to mind for humourous reasons only!
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly, dance slotted, dance rotationally. Specialization is for insects.


-With profuse apologies to Robert A. Heinlein.

[ducasi]

Ceroc moves were/are taught slotted, even if they didn't expound it, in as much as the follower starts at a certain place and returns to it at the end of the pattern (except for passing moves) but it was only when going to Nigel and Ninas' classes that I found you could exploit the mans left hand side for moves. It took going to N&Ns lessons to realise what I was doing and the possibilities that it would open up by dancing the same way in freestyle as in the lessons.

Yep, that makes sense...

Thinking about it, I think I derived my slotted style firstly based on how we'd been taught, and secondly, as an evolution of the "reverse catapult" that I'd been taught in regular classes.

Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?
I'm just a bog standard MJ dancer having been 'brought up' dancing at many venues and like all in that position, I've danced with many slotted follows, and many rotational follows. I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Don't we all exploit the mens left side for moves ? Pretzels and the like ?

I imagine so.

I can't say I've ever found it a problem leading left side moves.

I only have 1 example of it being a problem. I'm saying that the reason some are inclined to circle is due to a lot of moves being led to the right hand side and the leader leading from his right hand to create an initial pull in that direction. So while you say "rotational dancing" is perfectly valid - I don't think I've ever seen an MJ class where this is taught - it just happens for the reasons i mentioned. For experienced dancers, its really not noticeable at all "as a problem" but will obviously happen when people want to do moves that happen to go in a circle - iyswim Any dance does require you to move about a bit after all.

The question becomes, is it right for the lead to insist on a slotted style? Is it right for the follower to insist on a rotational style? Or is the dance a partnership where some kind of solution is worked out?

I think its right for the leader to expect to be leading - everything else is irrelevant

[killingtime]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

Indeed. Since I always actually lead a false or almost pretzel I've questioned why I use that signal (like a carrot to snatch away) and beyond taunting my follower I couldn't think of a good reason so I dropped it as a signal (though I'm so conditioned myself I still offer it quite a bit of the time). Most followers can still be lead past my left though I still have issues with some (though there is a fairly clear visual lead for the left side in a pretzel like position anyway).

I agree that most followers, in my experience, will move to the right automatically.

[TA Guy]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

Heh, yeah, I almost put something along the lines of 'Now we know why the Pretzel has a signal!!!'.

It does kinda indicate that maybe, just maybe the Pretzel family of moves was designed with rotational dance in mind. Maybe
But there are other left side moves tho, I'm afraid I'm not good at move names, but I can think of two others and one left side blocking move just off the top of my head that are popular intermediate class moves. It's not like the left side is completely ignored.

[TA Guy]

I think its right for the leader to expect to be leading - everything else is irrelevant

Perfectly valid viewpoint.

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed. 'Invitation' by definition says it's perfectly acceptable to refuse.

If you accept that, the original point still stands.

[Dreadful Scathe]

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed.

Certainly true. I would see an automatic circular movement as an assumption rather than a lead though - do people try to lead in a circle and turn to face their partner to continue this circle ? I generally don't see this.

[Chef]

But most on here describe their lead as 'invitational'. Then it becomes more complicated since it's a bit rich to say your lead is invitational, and then insist it must be obeyed. 'Invitation' by definition says it's perfectly acceptable to refuse.

If you accept that, the original point still stands.

Here are my ideas about what I would think of as an invitational lead, FWIW.

I think of an invitational lead as being able indicate clear direction to a connected follower that doesn't go to the point of pulling the follower off balance. If I exceeded this and pulled or pushed the follower off balance then she then would have no choice but to move in that direction as she attempted to stop herself falling over. The dance for the follower might then become, in the words of Buzz Lightyear, "falling with style".

So you can't insist your lead is obeyed but you do wonder why someone asks you to lead them and then continually ignores the lead you provide.

If I led a follower into a dip or a lean there would be a point where I would be inviting the follower to go into that dip or lean. If the follower gives me some of her weight I would take that as an acceptance of my invitation and I would continue with the move. If she does not give me some of her weight I have no right to force her off balance and into the drop.

In an open hold lead if I provide an invitational lead to the connection and the follower chooses not to accept it she can always release the connection by discontinuing muslce tone in her arm.

I think of connection and lead in the following terms. The connection is like a phone line that has a dialing tone on it to indicate the connection is active and the lead is the information that is transmitted back and forth along the connection. The connection is always present to allow lead to be trasmitted even if you choose to transmit no lead at a given time. So if either party decides to drop the connection then no transmission of lead is possible.

So if I provide an invitational lead to a follower and she chooses not to accept it by disconnecting the connection and then going somewhere else I have to think of something else to do, how to fit it into the music, how it will avoid other people and objects, and how to provide a lead for it - within two beats of music. Generally I can do all that within two beats of music but if I have to do that for every two beats of music I start wondering what exactly my utility for this follower is.

[Astro]

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

Just wanted to point out, in case anyone thinks I'm a liar, that I have attended various free taster classes on Jango, WCS, rumba and waltz, UPC, Cuban Blues, and Latin flavour.

However, I have never paid money and attended ANY workshop. This is due to not being able to hear the teachers, due to my deafness.

Amir has said though, that dancers can learn better using their eyes and watching the teacher, better than listening to the teacher.

I think he meant because vision and dancing share the same side of the brain (either left or right) and listening is more logical on the other side of the brain.

[Astro]

However, I have never paid money and attended ANY workshop.

Oops, I remembered a style workshop I did 2 years ago with Camille F from Oz and Simon Borland.

Luckily no one noticed.